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There's a podcast that's sure all that rocks hard is gold. And they're climbing the stairway to 11. When they get to there they know the record stores are all closed. But online they can get what they came for.

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Oh, and they're streaming the Stairway to 11.

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Hello, and welcome to Stairway to 11. My name is George.

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This is John.

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And I'm TR.

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Good evening, dear listeners.

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Before we begin tonight's show, there's something we need to address.

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Over the holidays, something was a little off for me about the podcast.

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Like a tickle in my brain. The discussions are great, as always. So let's take inventory. John is, of course, finding new ways to bring Rush up every episode because somehow it always comes back to Rush. Check. We got that on our list. TR is there, too. The professor. Carefully evaluating every record based on one simple question. But do we really need vocals? Check. And yet, something.

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is missing. I'm listening to the conversations. I'm nodding along. I'm almost satisfied. Almost. Because deep down in the quiet cockles of my heart, I'm thinking one thing. Could have used a little more. Jay. Now don't get me wrong. What we've got is good. It's tight. It's professional. It's respectable. But this show doesn't need respectable. I'm telling you fellas. You're going to want that. Jay.

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More Jay in the discussions. More Jay in the disagreements. More Jay saying the thing everyone else is thinking but is too polite to say out loud. Every time Jay speaks, the show gets louder, smarter, and somehow more sexy. I don't know how. I don't want to know. It just does. I'm not talking about let's have Jay on again next episode. I'm talking full-time Jay. Wall-to-wall Jay. No cameo Jay. No special guest.

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Because when Jay's not on mic, I'm looking around the studio thinking, where's my other arm? The answer is obvious. I got a fever. And the only prescription is more Jay. So tonight we're not just welcoming a guest. We're not rotating a chair. We're adding a brother. We're adding more Jay to the mix. Permanently. More Jay in the lineup. More Jay in our hearts. And most importantly, more Jay in your ear holes.

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Ladies and gentlemen, please welcome the newest full-time member of Stairway to 11. Because whether you like it or not,

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Gotta have more Jay. Welcome, Jay.

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Thank you. Can I say two things straight off the bat here? One is, those were great sound bites. And two is, I still haven't gotten my check from the Elvis episode.

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That's funny, because I don't think any of us did either.

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Well, that was direct deposited. And since it was nothing, it doesn't really show up.

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I mean I gave you 100% of what we got for it but you know. I mean my bank account mysteriously went down a little bit around that time. Oh that was for my electricity bill. Well George invited me to be here and I'm happy to be. I had super fun talking with these fellas on the Elvis. I joined them for the Elvis episode and the world is made out of more than metal so it's fun to have a chance to talk about other stuff. And so.

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Thanks for having me, fellas. TR, your hair's getting long. Wow. Retirement equals hippie time. I guess so. Congratulations to you. George is the only officially working member of this episode. What was I thinking? Yeah. You're outnumbered again. Yeah. Yeah. I'd say now we're going to have way more push for those blue light start times. You know, the blue plate specials. Yeah. Well, you know, so it is worth mentioning that

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You guys are on the east coast and so it's seven o'clock your time which by the way I screwed up because I thought it was three hours difference and that changes so I was sitting here an hour ago going like where is everybody but then I went ahead and made my supper and I don't mind telling you it's that's what time I eat I eat at five you know there are people out there that must be like oh my god he's old but to be fair we eat a late lunch and we do a lot of hiking and stuff so

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Yes, I'm in the blue plate special time, John. Jay, I can't tell you how much I love eating early every day, regardless of work or not. I would prefer to eat early. It's way better. Then you're done. You go grab your book, you watch your movie, whatever you're going to do, listen to your records, you're done. I never eat before seven. Oh, man. Seven o'clock, I'm bitching. I got to do dishes from eating earlier. Which is about when I do mine, too, John. Yeah. I lay around for a while.

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Well, then I get up and do the dishes. Like, oh, man, I forgot. Well, those working class divs get off at five. Then you got to go work out and take a shower. And then you make you make food. And then it's seven o'clock and you eat. You watch a little TV. You you crawl into bed and hope you die. And then you unfortunately wake up the next day and do it all again. Well, that's exactly why I used to eat at five. I used to get off at five or six, you know. So but now if you break the 430 barrier, you're in real trouble.

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Might as well go to Boca Raton.

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Yeah.

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All right.

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So as sort of a bonus for a signing bonus, if you will, for Jay, I gave him the option to determine the path of this episode.

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And so I will now hand the reins over to Jay.

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Yeah.

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Thanks for that.

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Because there's all kinds of things that I'm ready to talk about.

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or that I like to talk to my friends about.

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And this is one of those things.

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So very cool to have this opportunity.

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And what I think about oftentimes is like, I mean, ironically, I'm coming over from our other podcast, which is a metal podcast.

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So here I am bringing sort of metal, but it's not really.

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What was heavy before metal?

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And because there was heavy music as early as the 50s, and we're going to talk about that.

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I mean,

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and somebody jump in,

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if you want to say there was heavy music as early as the 1700s.

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Yeah,

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exactly.

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You know,

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so these guys shredding it up and yeah,

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right.

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Yeah,

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exactly.

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So we're going to talk about that,

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but I think I guess our,

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our primary mission statement topic today is what was heavy before metal

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with a sub title of the deepest roots of hard rock.

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And so I don't think it needs to be explained more than that. We're going to cover I think a lot of ground because I think we've all made some lists and things of songs to share and talk about. So let's just my first thought was we could maybe go around and say what makes something heavy to you. I'll pass it off to whoever wants to speak first and I'll all jump in on as we go. And I kind of talk about pre-metal but I mean okay let's say distorted guitars make something heavy. No question about that.

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But what about a bassoon? Or what about pacing? You know what I mean? Yeah. How things can be presented. What about the March of the Empire on Star Wars or whatever? That's probably not the title of that track, but you know what I'm talking about. Yeah, right. Exactly. And that is heavy. I mean, there's no doubt about that, right? Like there's just this ominous feel to it. And there's like this. I mean, that's funny you mention that because, you know, when you think of something that.

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Because when you think about something being heavy, you think of like it moves you, right? Like there's some sort of power to it that is somewhat inexplicable, but you have a feeling about it that makes you feel like this is really doing something to your inner core that makes you feel either empowered or revelatory or I don't know, you know, what exact words to describe it.

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But it's definitely a feeling that something's happening, and this is really... This is the magic of music, right? This is what music can do that not a lot of other things can do, and that's why we all love it so much, I think. Well, you used the words ominous and power, which I think is interesting about... And you avoided speed or distorted guitars or whatever.

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it is or double bass drum which is great because that's kind of what we're talking about here is like what's the what's the underlying thing because the other thing and we've talked about this briefly on the other show once which is you know there are also just like keys musical keys you know d flat d sharp whatever that make that just produce a naturally sad a sound that makes you feel winsome and sad and right or modes yeah you know john uh you got some thoughts yeah i got i got a few things that what i think

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makes music heavy. Does anyone remember the expression, "It's the economy, stupid"? Do you remember that? Well, it's the riff, stupid. And that goes for all music going back to the 50s. You know, it may not have been heavy riffs, but it's the way the riff was played. And I think that says a lot about things. Sure, you mentioned distortion, there's feedback, there's that crunch that's driving, pounding, that's all part of it. But for a lot of music,

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especially in the 50s that wasn't there necessarily so it was attitude you know the way they played the aggressiveness of how they played sometimes the lyrical content added to it now i'm not one who subscribes to well all rock and rolls politically motivate no it's not if it if you think that then you need to go back and read the lyrics to white snake and led zeppelin albums you get back to me on that one just saying it's a it covers all kinds of ground yeah that's those are just politics is lord of the rings right

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Right. It's all part of that. All those things. Fantasy. Everything. Drugs. You know, all that's politics. It's all part of it. So that's all part of the attitude. T.R., you mentioned that heavy feeling. To me, sometimes it could be slow. It could be fast. But it's that weight you feel. That the room just got bigger when you're at a show, when a band starts playing, you know? Yeah. And some of these bands, they may not be hard rock bands. They might just be rock bands. But you get this feeling of this weight, this heavy

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that's surrounding you and just pulsating through your body. Almost like, you know, when you see a movie and something like a sound wave explodes or something like that, and you see the ripple across the screen. Right. And then everyone's like, they just freeze right one second, then their hair goes back, you know, and they get knocked over. Or like the Maxell guy sitting in his chair. Right. Well, that's, isn't that BASF? Yeah. We don't make the music. I don't remember that differently. Yeah. We just make it sound better. Yeah. Yeah. That actually, yeah, exactly.

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So that's what heavy is to me. It could be so many things. It doesn't have to necessarily be dark. I prefer my music to be a little darker. Yeah. Personally. So it doesn't have to be. You're right. But you know, something John just said made me think and we you know, we were just talking about like, OK, how far back does this go? Beethoven's fifth. You talk about the riffs, stupid. Yeah. Wow. If that wasn't if that wasn't a movement, a classic.

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music movement and some and some one of our five or ten favorite metal bands introduced that riff it would be like iron man or something yeah well you get so we mentioned you know the music from star wars well that's 100 lifted from gustav holst the planets mars the bringer war is basically the precursor to star wars you know i'm thinking too suddenly of uh the 2001 space odyssey there you go um

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You know, they get all jazzed up for about 10 minutes. You know, I'm reminded because of some of the things John said. And wow, those are really good, thoughtful thoughts. Just so you know, like this is already a much better discussion than I even hoped we'd have. But low expectations of us, dude. We set the bar pretty low. Maybe like heavy music. No, it's not that. Yeah. Okay. Fair enough. But I mean, you really thought

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about this and but it of course really is because you guys love music but I'm reminded of from the Iggy Pop documentary that Jim Jarmusch did about him and it's really good too it's totally worth watching and it's kind of about him but it's kind of about it might even be about the Stooges specifically I don't know but anyway long story short he he talks about how as a kid he went and they're talking about his earliest musical influences and he was into jazz and all this stuff but he lived in Detroit

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of course and and so i'm going somewhere with this because there's a larger thing here too but

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they went to the ford motor plant of course as a field trip as one does as one does in 1965 or

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whatever it was probably 62 or earlier than that and um and he said they had this big you know

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thing like almost like a guillotine what certainly wasn't but it was just a piece of metal going all the

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way up and then clang some sort of press and it was a massive sound and he said boy i'd sure like to do

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and he meant artistically, you know, like, which I love. And then it also kind of, and now I'm kind of thinking about how interesting it is that a lot of what came out of Detroit is very similarly influenced, wouldn't you say? Even in Motown. Yeah, you know, it's funny because I just watched the documentary on Cream Magazine, and, you know, that was based in Detroit, and, you know, they covered a lot of, initially, you know, it was mostly kind of

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of Detroit music because the press on both coasts really didn't give Detroit its due when there was a lot happening there and a lot of great bands coming out of that area. And so initially I think that was their goal was to kind of cover their own music and say what they wanted to say about it.

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I think between you know the tough hard streets of Detroit and you know we've talked to we've also you know we've all you know looked at what was going on in Birmingham maybe around the same time and and then you've got what was also industrial in nature by the way right exactly so you have this really kind of tough neighborhoods industrial blue collar

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situation where you've got people, you know, making music in that kind of environment and atmosphere. And, and, uh, you know, I don't know a poor economic environment, by the way. Well, not always because, you know, you've got like, you know, there are certain elements there that are, you know, doing very well. Right. Like, you know, there was a lot of, uh, a lot of

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of jobs. There's, you know, like you said, the auto industry's there. So you've got, you know, there are a lot of well-paid middle-class people there. But then you've also got a lot of people that aren't doing so great. And so you've kind of got this kind of rough and tumble aspect to it as well. And all of that kind of comes together somehow to kind of be a cauldron for this kind of music, I think.

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Absolutely.

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Those are all good points.

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So you got to be deplorable to make good music.

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Nah.

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Not always.

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Working class.

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At least in those two cities, working class was it.

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Working class.

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Was it?

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Well, but George, how about you?

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I mean, like, what is, you try to define heavy to yourself.

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Sure.

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So, obviously, loud, heavy guitars go hand in hand with heavy music.

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But what else makes music heavy for me?

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The Lyrical Content, particularly if it contrasts strongly with the style of music, if you've got like a folk song that's just singing about murder. Okay, like Amigo the Devil is actually, and I didn't think of that until just now, but it makes my point. Amigo the Devil is like an acoustic, mostly acoustic anyway, artist, and his songs are like murder country.

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And there's not a single lick. And granted, I know I'm speaking post-Black Sabbath, so forgive me. But it makes my point. Oh, no, that doesn't count. If you're talking non-metal, you can go as post-Black Sabbath as you want. But his music is heavy as hell in that you listen to this stuff and it's going to weigh on you.

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The lyrical content is just so insane. So, and I mean, you know, it's like he's doing death metal songs on an acoustic guitar. It's just, well, you make me think suddenly of Long Black Veil by Lefty Frizzell slash the band. Ten years ago on a cold, dark night, a man was killed beneath the town hall light. You know, like you guys know that song. And anyway, the guy goes to the gallows because he was in the arms of his best friend and wife.

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The Person Killed Under the Town Hall Light looked an awful lot like him kind of thing. It wasn't him. But that suddenly strikes me. And that is a heavy song, by the way. I mean, it is heavy, but it's not at all heavy. It reminds me of Gary Moore's Over the Hills and Far Away. Yeah, I got one for you, George. I just thought of when you said that, The Ballad of the Edmonds Fitzgerald. That's a great example. I mean, you want to talk heavy. The heaviest lyric I've ever in my life ever heard is, does anyone know?

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Where the Love of God Goes When the Waves Turn Minutes to Hours. You hear that, you're just like, oh, that's crushing to hear that. And that is a heavy song. There's no doubt in my mind. Emotionally heavy. That strikes me as a song that your average Iron Maiden fan would be like, dude, that's awesome. That's true, because I mean, that's pure Maiden lyrics right there. What about Johnny Cash, I Hung My Head?

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Yeah, really. I mean,

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Reno, just to watch him die.

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Come on.

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But also delivered in that low bass voice.

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And, you know, it's funny because, I mean,

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riff is such an obviously thought.

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And I was so glad John's had riffs because,

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because now, now let's talk about, you know, Elvis or something,

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mystery train or something, which is far predates, you know,

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metal quote, metal quote unquote, heavy metal.

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But it's essentially a metal riff. I mean, and also presented in the way that John was talking about, the attack. I have this weird theory about the evolution of heavy metal, and it's not weird, but I think it's actually pretty accurate, which is you can kind of trace it down, and it always comes down to why don't we just do that all the time? And what I mean is that somebody heard the old blues guys, and then they would hit the heavy part where they'd go up into that raspy part of the voice, and somebody was like,

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I like this music but I want to do more of it that exact thing that really loud part and then they would do that and then the next person would come along and they'd be like he sings high here and there and then Robert Plant was like well what if I just did that all the time you know what I mean like that's the stuff they like the most and then yada yada yada on down the line and then you've got Kerry King who loves staying class going what if we just did stuff like Exciter you know what I mean and it's I always think there's this weird extreme edge to people who are just like

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What if we just only did that? You know what I mean? Right. Well, that's like, yeah, that's a continuous distillation, right? Like you discover these elements and then you say, okay, yeah, let's distill this into like what is really, you know, getting to the very bottom of it. Like what is causing this? What is the elements to this that are the most powerful elements to it? And then, you know, cut away the rest of it and amplify that, right?

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So, yeah, that's absolutely. And, you know, when, when Jay, when you suggested this topic, you know, one of the things that I kind of, I have to admit, like, I, I don't listen to a lot of like 50s and 60s music for the most part. Sure. Because, and I think, I think you just hit on the reason that, that I don't. And that's,

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There's not enough there. It sounds kind of... It's crawling and everything else we listen to is running, right? So it's kind of like there's the elements and it's there. And there are certainly songs where you're like, whoa, that's amazing. Because one of the things that when I was doing a little research on this, I looked up this guy called Johnny Guitar Watson. And he did this song called Space Guitar.

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in 1954 that sounds like, you know, it's almost unbelievable that somebody did this in 1954. Just like all kinds of distortion and echo and all kinds of crazy effects and stuff was going on. And he's like just tearing it up. And so I guess my point is, is there's so few like parts of that or so.

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It's still the building blocks, right? So it doesn't hit hard enough for me most of the time for me to listen to that kind of stuff a lot. I just want to point out that 1954 was prior to when Marty went to the Enchantment Under the Sea dance. And so... I don't know how to... He hadn't even rocked out at the dance yet. It's your cousin, Marvin. Marvin Berry. Anyway, sorry.

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Well, putting that another way, these were records that you would have skipped a lot of songs on, you know what I mean? That with your current, you know, sophisticated, well, future as, you know, you live in the future. Right. But yeah, I mean, that's super interesting, actually. Yeah. And I mean, obviously we can all appreciate it because we all know that that's where everything we love came from. Yeah. And you're right, you know, like these blues guys,

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were doing this stuff, you know, since almost time immemorial. But, like, you know, certainly there were blues recordings from the 30s on, and even earlier than that. But I think some of this really starts with, and we don't have to get into this now, but, like, I think part of this has to do with the advancement of technology. I'm all for getting into it. Actually,

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Though I think it's going to be a big part of our discussion because

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I'm willing to bet some of your tracks that you've chosen really illustrate that factor

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Well yeah

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Because

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But now or then, either one, I don't think it matters

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If you want to, I think you're right

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And can I give you, can I step down on your toes and give you one example of that that I think of

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Sure

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The

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The

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Invention of the Marshall 19

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The 1987 or whatever they call it

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I can't remember what didn't come out in 87.

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There's a distinct line between staying class and also on,

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I mean,

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you could just,

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and like this,

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like if you go list to old Scorpio's record and then you get like up to say love drive or something like that.

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And it was the high distortion amplifiers.

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I mean,

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it was a step in technology and then everybody had one.

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Oh,

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it was the JCM.

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The fuck.

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Yeah.

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900,

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JCM,

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800 and 900.

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Right.

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So anyway, that's one of the jumps that you're talking about. Yeah. Well, I was actually talking about far before that, really. I mean, you know, Dave Davis in the 60s with the Kinks is like using a razor blade to cut up his cones so he can get distortion on his amp, you know, and people are trying to figure out how to like overdrive their tubes to get this distortion sound. And, you know, what is it?

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I was surprised to learn that Gibson came out with the Maestro Fuzz tone in 1962 as a distortion pedal. And it didn't really take hold until 1965 when Keith Richards used it on the Can't Get No Satisfaction.

00:27:11.520 --> 00:27:41.500
to have and we don't all have our collections and our calendars in front of us but the Beatles swear to god that the first instance of purposeful and you guys might have to remind me which track it is um feedback on a track is um um it's on a rubber sole they make this claim all the time that the first purposeful oh was i feel fine yeah you're singing yeah yeah yeah

00:27:41.540 --> 00:28:10.680
Is that true, do you think? I mean, I'm not saying, like, you know, philosophically. I mean, I'm trying to remember if there were instances before that. I feel like I hear some, even in some of the stuff that I compiled for this discussion. I have, there's, I have a song that I'll bring up when we get to that part where there's one of the earliest uses of distorted guitar, but it's in the 50s, but I'll save it for that when we get to that part.

00:28:13.040 --> 00:28:41.020
Yeah, it is. But the song, I picked this song specifically because it's been used by so many bands or artists throughout the years. And the evolution of the song from where it started to where it got is kind of the very definition of this episode about what is heavy. And with that, I think we're now holding ourselves back a little bit because I think our discussion will only be made better if we start bringing up some of these tracks.

00:28:41.140 --> 00:28:45.620
So unless anybody wants to make just some of the more generalized comments about what

00:28:46.000 --> 00:29:11.120
I think they'll probably come out while we're doing this. Yeah, I think, you know, I've got some other cultural comments, but yeah. Well, what about the Diabolus thing? Yeah, I thought we'd do that quick and then we'll just open the floodgates and let everything happen. And I had wanted to say something about this particular, the Devil's Interval in music. And I mean, if you like heavy metal and you read

00:29:11.140 --> 00:29:41.100
any magazines or books or anything, you probably know about it. And it's just a very famous, tritone is the term for it, and I'm not going to get into specific too much musical blah, blah, blah about it. But in essence, what it is, and I was going to sort of title this on our little script, What Did Black Sabbath Do? In fact, maybe I did. I can't remember. Because the very first three notes of that record, arguably the first real

00:29:41.140 --> 00:30:10.540
kind of heavy metal record of all time. So on Black Sabbath is that devil's interval. And what it is, is it's a pattern of notes that the last note in the pattern, your brain really wants it naturally to go to some more satisfying resolution. Like, you know, to start at an E, go up to an A, and then come back to an E is your basic rock song, and it's kind of happy, go lucky and everything.

00:30:11.300 --> 00:30:38.960
Well, the Devil's Interval, so named, well, hundreds of years ago, the 1500s or something, because the church used to discourage people to use notes that had this kind of sense of ambiguousness and not closing the musical thought. And it's eerie. It is. I mean, I'll just think about that first Black Sabbath record, the first song, those first three notes on that record, which are the only three notes to the basic part of the song.

00:30:40.460 --> 00:31:07.900
And that's what they did. That's what they brought. And other people had done it before, had been around. It was just like they very purposely went like, what if we just scared the daylights out of everybody? You know what I mean? But it's based on, probably not to their pot-smoking heads, but it's based on a very real musical, a known musical theory, if you will. So it's the Devil's Interval, Diabolism Music. And I just argue that that's one of the reasons that Heavy Metal kind of begins there.

00:31:08.720 --> 00:31:38.059
because even though there are probably instances at least five or ten of the tracks that we all chose to listen to before we came to this small little instances anyway if anybody out there doesn't know what i'm talking about go listen to the song black sabbath the first three notes are the devil's interval it doesn't have to be those specific three notes but it needs to be a pattern of music that starts somewhere and instead of resolving like a stevie wonder song you know we're like a very satisfying we're back down to

00:31:38.060 --> 00:32:08.040
you know it goes someplace that just sort of feels unfinished and therefore eerie and therefore sort of unknown so on and so forth it's very commonly thought of concept of music so i i just wanted to introduce that because i think that's one of the things that happened in 1969 that really developed heavy metal music it didn't introduce heavy music to the world but it's what really started that took a left turn if you will to um this whole

00:32:08.080 --> 00:32:38.040
a whole new kind of very specific genre which of course then branched out to a thousand other ridiculously numbered genres so anyway i just wanted to kind of throw that out there and anybody wanting please to make comments on it there are a few famous songs it also appears in purple haze has it um that's the one it's the first part of that phrase that that is troubling but it's funny because those things pop up it's just like there were a lot you know at the same time

00:32:38.080 --> 00:33:08.040
that Freud and, you know, Jung and all those guys were working. That was like when Picasso was working. Like, we'd seem to take these weird steps all across all of our disciplines at the same time sometimes. And so right at 1969, when everybody was mad about Vietnam and all these different things, we sort of stepped into the unknown. It's very interesting to me. But it also sort of defines, it's one of the defining factors of

00:33:08.560 --> 00:33:10.960
But it doesn't have to be present in a heavy metal song.

00:33:11.420 --> 00:33:11.480
No.

00:33:12.840 --> 00:33:18.320
So anyway, I think maybe, does anyone want to throw a track out?

00:33:18.750 --> 00:33:20.880
An early track, doesn't matter where, but just something.

00:33:21.610 --> 00:33:21.740
Sure.

00:33:22.040 --> 00:33:23.260
A good example of early heavy.

00:33:24.700 --> 00:33:31.440
So for me, one example of something unusual that was most certainly not metal from 1959

00:33:32.410 --> 00:33:34.680
is actually something that Jay shared with me recently.

00:33:34.760 --> 00:34:04.420
And that was the Leuvin brothers and their album and song Satan is real. It's written from a gospel point of view, but it's still and it instills this fire and brimstone vibe that would certainly eventually encompass much of heavy metal. And again, it was a gospel leaning song. It was it was a cautionary tale, but still very unusual for the time. And dark and dark.

00:34:05.620 --> 00:34:34.500
And also that did, what was it, 59? Was that the year in that jar? Yeah. And that also came straight out of Deliverance Country, which is also sort of foreboding and weird in its way, you know? I think that's a great example. And that's, because on the surface, if you put it on paper, there's nothing heavy about that song. On paper. Yeah. I'm going to throw out one example, and it'll be one of my earlier examples. I'm glad you mentioned the year, because I think I'll get the year.

00:34:34.760 --> 00:34:35.700
release on some of these.

00:34:36.600 --> 00:34:41.919
But I had sent the guys a playlist before we did this,

00:34:41.940 --> 00:34:43.659
just so they would know where I was coming on,

00:34:44.060 --> 00:34:48.419
coming from and then what avenues to start running down themselves to see what,

00:34:48.500 --> 00:34:51.980
what, what they, what they, what they came up with.

00:34:53.400 --> 00:34:54.800
1956 screaming, Jay Hawkins.

00:34:54.840 --> 00:34:55.760
I put a spell on you.

00:34:56.600 --> 00:35:02.260
That is the weirdest, darkest song with a tinge of humor,

00:35:02.800 --> 00:35:09.960
quite frankly but also he is screaming jay hawkins i mean there and then also it's like it's way

00:35:10.040 --> 00:35:32.760
down at the bottom of some bass saxophone raising right isn't it don't don't don't don't you know and then that predates you know sabbath by 13 years and but it's heavy i mean there's just so much going on there it's that foreboding we're talking about it's also a black man in america um talking about um you know seducing women

00:35:33.720 --> 00:36:02.180
Which is interesting. And then it's just this. It's got a big bass bottom to it. Kind of a herky-jerky New Orleans. Maybe almost voodoo-y kind of rhythm. All very heavy concepts. You know, the screaming. And it's not like screaming now. I mean, he was not really hitting where he was trying to go with a lot of those notes. But it just works. It works. Yeah.

00:36:02.260 --> 00:36:32.220
Yeah. Which just adds to the weirdness, the ominousness of it. Yeah. And he always did kind of present this New Orleans voodoo kind of, that was his forward-looking, his look. Not always, but I'm saying there are lots of photos of them that look like a late-night creature feature kind of advertisement. Anyway, go around and see who else got some examples to share. I hope you might have more specific reasons.

00:36:32.280 --> 00:37:01.720
I want to address that distorted guitar one that you brought up. So I have way too much. I actually ended up doing it more by band than by specific song. And I'm picking songs from those bands because, and it worked both ways. I also went with song to get to the band and then look through the band's catalog. But I want to make a disclaimer. I am no way in some of these older ones, an expert on this information. So there's an, if you guys are anyone who listens,

00:37:01.900 --> 00:37:31.880
here's any inconsistencies by all means point them out because some of this stuff is really hard to verify the information yeah because songs i thought were performed by some artists were actually just written by them and vice versa so but this one is a song that i don't know if this is true or not this is just what i saw when i was doing some research that this is one of the earlier songs that had the use of distorted guitar and that's tiny bradshaw's train kept a rolling

00:37:32.040 --> 00:38:01.880
Yep. Which, if you know that song, it's been redone by numerous big names over the years, and each time it gets redone, it gets heavier. Absolutely. And heavier and faster. What is, um, can I ask you about the release date on that one, John? So that, the release, it's 1951 as far as you know from Tiny Bradshaw, but then Johnny Burnett did a reworking of it in 56 where the guitar became this kind of distorted

00:38:02.300 --> 00:38:31.680
a fast tempo song. But then it was covered by the Yardbirds. It's covered by Led Zeppelin. And then after the 1970 demarcation line of Black Sabbath, when that came out, then it's covered by Aerosmith, who probably has on the radio, at least, the most well-known version of it. I would think so. That we've heard the most. But with each time, it's gotten heavier and heavier. And the point of me bringing this song up first is that,

00:38:31.900 --> 00:38:59.560
A lot of these older songs, especially blues songs, are so rooted in hard rock, or 60s rock, which then all the bands that followed, even after Black Sabbath, they were looking to the bands that were looking to the blues. So they have this long train of blues. There's two roads that deviated from blues. You went down the rock road, that became hard rock, that eventually became metal.

00:39:00.720 --> 00:39:30.700
And there's also a lesser-known top road, which is the kind of, I wouldn't call it hardcore, but it would be the hardcore for the 60s that eventually turned into proto-punk, that eventually turned into punk at some point. You know, because we mentioned Michigan, and I don't want to mention any names yet, because I'm sure we have some Michigan bands on our list for this. Or at least I do. I'm so happy that you brought this one up, John, because I had, this was one I was going to bring up, but I was going to bring up the, not the, I was going to bring up the

00:39:54.400 --> 00:40:00.700
I think was the Aerosmith one. I was just looking at

00:40:00.700 --> 00:40:30.680
just now. You said Zeppelin did it, right? Because they did do it. Yeah, and I think theirs was specifically just live. I don't think they... Maybe they did a studio recording of it. No, no, I think you're right. And if it's in the studio, they played it live in the studio. Yeah. But I think it's... There's a version of it that I very naturally have, and it might be on that live at Albert Hall thing, maybe, or something. I don't know. You know, for all I know, the Stones may have actually played it at some point, too. I don't have any confirmation of that, but...

00:40:31.700 --> 00:41:00.680
I know you mentioned appropriation on the music. For me, the appropriation were the labels, because they saw a dollar could be made. But I don't think every artist that, and there's judgments on that, I know that, but I don't think every artist was out just to snag music, because I mean, we talked about that during the Elvis episode. Yeah, exactly. And a lot of it was, you know, an homage. No, I was being too woke there, and all I had to say was that. No, no, no. No, you bring up a good point, not to cut you off, because

00:41:01.380 --> 00:41:05.820
If you look at a lot of the bands we like, there's cover songs on every single album.

00:41:06.270 --> 00:41:06.540
Oh, yeah.

00:41:06.950 --> 00:41:12.960
I mean, you look at the early Priest albums, they got a cover on almost every album up to Hellbent for Leather.

00:41:13.600 --> 00:41:17.680
There's something they're covering, and that's where the labels are the issue.

00:41:18.130 --> 00:41:21.340
Because while a band, maybe Priest wanted to cover a song, right?

00:41:22.350 --> 00:41:23.420
Okay, well, that did really well.

00:41:23.470 --> 00:41:24.980
Well, you're going to do it again on the next album.

00:41:25.760 --> 00:41:26.880
You know, I'm going to tell you something, John.

00:41:27.200 --> 00:41:57.160
you've really put a powerful thought into my head and it's that um i don't know if you guys ever watch finding your roots um the pbs show where they yeah yeah and trace their their family trees back and it's really sad and will almost bring you to tears because every time it's a black person it always ends at the boat you know what i mean like you you can't go over to finland and look in some church and find records on somebody was thrown on a boat from africa you know and so that their family trees are much shorter and they get to a point where they're like we got your third

00:41:57.200 --> 00:42:27.160
and there's nothing else to know and um and i mentioned that simply because it was the labels john and and one thinks of um uh oh brother where art thou where they stop at the recording studio and it's singing a can for ten dollars right where a lot of these guys so what i mean is you can i don't know that you can trace down the authors of some of these songs i think you're right yeah yeah because they walked into some studio in memphis signed away their lives sang one song and took

00:42:27.160 --> 00:42:56.820
their $30 and stayed in a hotel for a week and had to take dinner. Is that kind of the impetus of the traditionally arranged concept? You know, that's actually very, you know, that's exactly what that is. Yeah. Cause like, you know, I time to die. And I think it's traditionally arranged. You listen to you like, that's gotta be somebody's blues song. Yeah. But if you don't know who wrote it. And I think, and I think you really kind of struck on why we don't know who wrote it. I mean, maybe that's, I honestly, that's generally known. It's just interesting.

00:42:57.160 --> 00:43:23.980
The labels procured that stuff in that way. It was true, by the way, with the early country artists, too. That's right. All these West Virginia backcountry homegrown songs that were traditional melodies or traditional folk songs. From Ireland and England. Yeah. I mean, they have to predate the United States in some cases.

00:43:28.380 --> 00:43:56.900
Yeah. I mean, I think some of this stuff is kind of ancient. And that's why I think that's why it resonates so much. Right. I mean, yeah, this has been this has been moving people for decades and possibly centuries. Sure. Yeah, exactly. And I think, you know, obviously, like some of that gets carried over. Some of it's new. Right. Like you just got done saying, like,

00:43:57.160 --> 00:44:27.140
Hey, look, you know, 15th century, the church is like, hey, don't do that. And yet, you know, here we are in 1969. And, you know, they're they may be finding it on their own, or maybe, you know, it was a little more planned than that. I don't know. You know, it's like, it's hard to know, like, if they were really kind of how how well plotted that was, or if it was just they stumbled onto it and thought, Oh, I like that. You know, that that sounds cool. Let me let me let me kind of find that

00:44:27.160 --> 00:44:27.700
a little more.

00:44:29.620 --> 00:44:31.180
But yeah, I think there's

00:44:31.940 --> 00:44:32.539
something that

00:44:35.220 --> 00:44:36.040
there's a timeless

00:44:36.410 --> 00:44:37.920
aspect to some of this stuff that

00:44:38.600 --> 00:44:39.980
is hard to explain

00:44:40.390 --> 00:44:41.580
or you can't...

00:44:42.119 --> 00:44:44.140
There are certain songs that when you hear

00:44:44.260 --> 00:44:46.280
them, you kind of feel like

00:44:47.640 --> 00:44:48.300
okay, like

00:44:49.320 --> 00:44:50.260
some of the Beatles

00:44:50.540 --> 00:44:52.160
songs, when you first hear

00:44:52.160 --> 00:44:53.700
a Beatles song that was like

00:44:54.060 --> 00:44:56.240
I don't know, some of those early tracks that

00:44:56.260 --> 00:44:57.780
where you think to yourself,

00:44:59.060 --> 00:45:00.140
that's so simple.

00:45:01.000 --> 00:45:04.120
How is it nobody wrote that before then?

00:45:04.560 --> 00:45:04.940
You know what I mean?

00:45:05.060 --> 00:45:07.780
It seems so obvious when you hear some of these songs.

00:45:09.420 --> 00:45:10.680
And yet, you know,

00:45:11.020 --> 00:45:13.440
it took until 1963 or whatever

00:45:13.700 --> 00:45:15.100
for somebody to

00:45:15.460 --> 00:45:17.440
pull that song out of the air.

00:45:18.020 --> 00:45:18.180
Yep.

00:45:19.720 --> 00:45:21.260
Yesterday is a great example because

00:45:22.220 --> 00:45:23.400
Paul McCartney himself

00:45:24.430 --> 00:45:25.140
wrote the song,

00:45:25.340 --> 00:45:55.280
I think that's one where he kind of dreamed the melody. Woke up the next day, kind of wrote it down, literally wrote it over breakfast so the original lyrics were ham and eggs instead of yesterday. And he frantically called, you know, who's the producer? George Martin. Called George Martin, called the other guys in the band, called other musicians and says, what is this? He kept saying he would play it for people who go, I know I'm ripping something off here. I gotta be. You know, which is a great aspect of the

00:45:55.320 --> 00:46:24.640
those things that's sort of like you find them you know instead of right i think part of that is uh and it's funny because i just thought of this very concept because uh on the metal side there's a band that i've deemed you know one band to rule all alkaloid has an album coming out this week and the reason i bring them that into the conversation is because i remember saying to george when their last album came i said this song sounds like another song i'm telling you this is they're like covering a song here and it wasn't it was just a melody

00:46:25.040 --> 00:46:53.700
that matched a melody from another song. And I think to answer the question, why hasn't this been done before? Or how come it hasn't been done before? Maybe it's because somebody has the riff, you know, or the intro or the piano piece to start it, but they never put together the bridge and they never put together the chorus and they never put together the midsection that might be a solo or might be a transition. They never put the ending to it. These pieces all might be just scattered all around the world for different musicians.

00:46:54.200 --> 00:47:22.940
And then here comes a band that are great writers in themselves, whether you like the Beatles or not, they wrote great songs. If you just look at it from an objective standpoint, had an incredible producer. I don't think that can be even... You can't meant he is the fifth Beatle, whether people want to admit it or not. And then you had this timing. So they just happened to put it all together. So maybe that's one answer to that question of why it hasn't been done before.

00:47:23.020 --> 00:47:51.720
because I swear I hear songs and I'm like, oh, come on. That had to have been done. Now what happens is you get to sue the band, but then you don't get all the money because they say, well, you didn't mean to play your music. And you're like, oh, it's just because Coldplay has bigger attorneys than Joe Cetriano. That's where I was going to go. Thank you, Joe. Jimmy Page finally won his lawsuit. So finally defended himself successfully in that lawsuit. And that took how long? Many, many, many years.

00:47:51.740 --> 00:48:21.640
Did you share an example yet of a track? No, I haven't. And like John, while I did grab a few songs, I kind of mostly kind of picked bands. And, you know, there's some early things. One group that comes up again and again from all of our guitar heroes, like Mick Jones,

00:48:22.060 --> 00:48:51.580
Tony Iommi, Geezer Butler, Eric Clapton, is a band called The Shadows. And they were primarily guitar-oriented instrumentals. But all of those guys said when they heard The Shadows, that made them want to play guitar. That made them want to, like, you know, even more so than The Beatles. And maybe, you know, it's probably because, you know,

00:48:51.740 --> 00:49:21.540
The Shadows kind of predated the Beatles. That's a better proof of, by the way, the roots of heavy, because I have one to share like that too. And what I mean is it's bands who were all, who so many, I've heard so many bands say, this is what I heard and got me going. Right. And so it's, so the Shadows are clearly, that's clearly something that had a kind of heavy to it because all these guys ended up making heavy music. Right. So it's just a nice little proof. And to throw the technology piece in there, they used,

00:49:21.720 --> 00:49:51.580
what was called a Watkins copycat echo unit that came out in the 50s. Echo had been used in the 40s and 50s using tape techniques to create an echo effect. And it makes things sound larger, right? Like if you've got this ambiance of a larger sound,

00:49:51.720 --> 00:50:20.300
by having like a like a you know an echo effect and so these these these bands were using these effects to sound bigger than anybody had ever sounded before because you know unless you're in a giant hall or you've got like this perfect acoustic room to be able to to record this in you're not going to have that sound and so

00:50:20.700 --> 00:50:44.920
So if you can actually put that sound on your tone or whatever using some kind of electronic means, then you've just improved your sound. And that certainly got people excited because it was a sound that they hadn't heard before in recorded music.

00:50:45.080 --> 00:51:13.540
There's something kind of ominous about it, too. I'm going to throw up... I'm going to throw up, because you brought that up, one of the things that I had included on my playlist, which is Blue Moon by Elvis, because all he does is riff with this very, very deep echo in that. And I think on the original album, it's actually called Blue Moon Take Nine. I think he just did this all night long. Number nine? Yeah, thank you, John.

00:51:13.860 --> 00:51:18.900
I think it's um but there's something just off about that track it's it's

00:51:18.980 --> 00:51:24.600
simultaneously romantic but you're also waiting for the murderer to come out of the woods and kill the kids

00:51:25.360 --> 00:51:31.740
you know what I mean and uh and I and it has everything to do with that technology that you're

00:51:31.880 --> 00:51:37.940
talking about right now like it just added this weird you know it's not exactly a theremin but I mean

00:51:38.060 --> 00:51:43.820
there's just like this extra thing there that just seems foreign slightly wrong and utterly heavy

00:51:43.820 --> 00:52:11.800
You know, they're beautiful at the same time, which of course we all agree heavy things are quite beautiful. So that's me slightly wrong and extremely heavy. That's why we love you so much. You know, just real quick, I want to throw this in. One thing you guys are mentioning equipment upgrades and improvements, but one thing we haven't really mentioned is technology in the booth. You know, they're actually recording itself.

00:52:14.100 --> 00:52:19.860
introduces that because blue moon that's on that's an on desk i mean everything

00:52:19.990 --> 00:52:24.880
starts to improve there but none of this stuff is any good if you don't have the people to work

00:52:24.920 --> 00:52:31.700
it so i think the the evolution of the producer where the label's not telling the producer what to do

00:52:32.520 --> 00:52:36.660
letting and to fit that and guys who are willing to try to fit more sound and let's see if we can get

00:52:36.900 --> 00:52:42.260
feedback on here for you and it doesn't redline you know whatever it is i think that kind of speaks

00:52:42.280 --> 00:53:11.620
about how influential George Martin was with the Beatles. But to think then all the producers that followed, that became big. And there's a ton of them from the 70s after Sabbath that we could talk about that blew the whole sound up there. But maybe that's part of the case for the 50s and 60s. You started having, they weren't just saying, hey, play this real quick and get out of here. I got somebody else coming in. You know, now you had people like, why don't you try this? Well, George Martin started his career on the wrong side of that fence.

00:53:11.660 --> 00:53:41.640
But an interesting thing is that he wasn't a rock guy. And so that's interesting, too, because he brought a lot of heavy to what they did. And he was, you know, with orchestras and things and whatever the hell else he did. So that's interesting. Since we're doing since you did a band, I'm going to throw out a band and then we'll go on Robin here, too. But it's one. I put two tracks on my playlist and it's the Dave Clark five. And I mentioned them partially because TR, you just remind a lot of guys that I've been doing.

00:53:41.680 --> 00:54:10.140
I would read about in the 80s, guitar players for metal bands and stuff. Some of the guys who were 30 by then. So these would be bands in the 70s, transition to the 80s. And so many of them mentioned the Dave Clark 5 that I was like, I got to get a record by the Dave Clark 5. And I got it right away. I mean, Glad All Over is the one you want to get if you want to understand their influence. But it's a completely stressed out, raspy vocal, shouting gang vocals here and there. Big, fuzzy bass. I think there's some distortion on the bass.

00:54:11.680 --> 00:54:41.640
just kind of a pounding drum thing it's they're sort of like a hard rock version of early Beatles um and um they brought they definitely to me were a jump forward um they were I mean they were in the mid to early 60s so they weren't a 50s band but it was when the Beatles were doing their pop records as opposed to Sgt. Pepper's so um so anyway Dave Clark 5 is definitely an early heavy thing to me that that that definitely what I was a known influence on a lot of

00:54:41.660 --> 00:55:09.800
Later, heavy music. Yeah. George, you got a band or a song? So, much like TR mentioned, and I think maybe others have too, I'm going to kind of go back and forth between throwing out a bunch of bands and also mentioning specific songs here and there. So, for the moment, I'm going to walk back to where TR was about, I don't know, a half hour ago, and talk about the blues.

00:55:12.700 --> 00:55:37.000
It's more about the style and the feel. Like 50s and 60s blues legends like Howlin' Wolf, Muddy Waters, John Lee, Hooker. They definitely played a part in the evolution of rock and then eventually metal because they, as previously mentioned, they really inspired a lot of the 60s rockers who then inspired, you know, the 70s and 80s hard rock and heavy metal guys.

00:55:41.180 --> 00:56:07.920
T.R. mentioned that the blues go back in time immemorial. I don't know if Henry VIII was playing blues, but I think at least to the beginning of the 1900s is perhaps a good place to start for that. I bet you could go into the late 1800s and still find some of that. Oh, for sure. Yeah, when you're talking like early gospel songs and work songs and things like that, absolutely. Right.

00:56:10.560 --> 00:56:40.520
Johnson yet. And that's, you know, such an obvious one. Um, later. Okay. Yeah. Can I share it? I want to share an anecdote too, very brief. And it's just simply, it's not an anecdote, but it's a line from a movie that I've always loved. And it was, um, Crossroads where, um, he's trying to talk, uh, Ralph Macchio and he getting a little pig nose amplifier so they could play it on the street. And he said, I don't play electric. I play acoustic. And he said, and the guy looks at me and he says, man, muddy waters invented electricity for a

00:56:45.540 --> 00:57:09.540
George, I want to follow up on something you said. You mentioned Howlin' Wolf. Howlin' Wolf's on my long list of stuff I have. But the songs that I listed for him, three of the four songs, are actually from the 60s that were covered by rock bands that just became big. So it's really funny. And I don't know if you had any intention. Do you know any songs? Okay.

00:57:09.620 --> 00:57:39.280
Not until much later and yeah, go right ahead. You sure? Okay, because if you're going to mention them later, I'll save them. No, no. Well, I'm only I'm going to be honing in on a few specific songs from a few specific from a very specific person. So I'll tell you what, I'll just briefly mention them. And if they come up again, great. It's okay. I was gonna say for Helen Wolfe, which by the way, a lot of his songs were written by Willie Dixon. Yeah, Willie. Willie Dixon is a juggernaut. He was the man.

00:57:39.620 --> 00:58:08.680
of a writer. Howlin' Wolf, and these are two songs that Willie Dixon wrote, which was Spoonful, which is heavy from Howlin' Wolf, but then you've got Cream's incredibly heavy version. There's Backdoor Man, which the door is covered, you know? And then another Willie Dixon song, Ain't Superstitious. Megadeth. Well, before him, Jeff Beck, you know? And then Megadeth, so I mean, someone to get that.

00:58:08.760 --> 00:58:10.600
I wrote half of the first Led Zeppelin record.

00:58:11.120 --> 00:58:11.640
Yeah, pretty much.

00:58:11.800 --> 00:58:12.140
That's right.

00:58:12.570 --> 00:58:17.840
But I wanted to move to a band that, and I'm probably stealing this,

00:58:19.280 --> 00:58:22.500
they're a usual suspect on a list if you went and searched.

00:58:22.720 --> 00:58:25.940
If you go and search songs that were heavy before heavy metal,

00:58:26.780 --> 00:58:28.640
one of these three songs I'm going to mention,

00:58:28.980 --> 00:58:30.580
because I'm going to do it by the band here,

00:58:31.460 --> 00:58:34.480
is going to come up every single time, and rightfully so.

00:58:34.640 --> 00:59:01.700
However, this band, while it's the usual suspect on the list, it's never the usual suspect when you talk about the British Invasion. Because everyone in the British Invasion names off always the Beatles or Rolling Stones. Then they have a lot of these kind of bubble gummy type bands that came out early. Oh, there's the Who, obviously, too. But nobody ever thinks of the Kinks right away. And the Kinks without question.

00:59:04.660 --> 00:59:34.140
The Beatles and Before The Rolling Stones were heavy as hell. The usual Suspect song is You Really Got Me, obviously. Right. That's a chuggy, chuggy riff with a big fuzzy sound. With a lot of attitude. Yeah. But there's another, there's You Really Got Me Part 2, which is called All Day and All the Night, because it's basically the same song with different lyrics. Again, another attitude song. But the third one I wanted to mention real quick. Now, those two were, by the way, 1964.

00:59:34.660 --> 01:00:04.620
So that predates anything from The Who. The Who had attitude right from the start, too. But till the end of the day is another song from 65 that came out that, while not heavy, just the way Dave Davies plays the guitar, the attitude from the band, they had a chip on their shoulder. They had an axe to grind as a band on some of their songs. If you don't know the Kinks, you really should, and that'll come up again maybe later in another section, you really should explore their music because

01:00:05.540 --> 01:00:11.440
There is so much there. They are so undervalued because all you hear is

01:00:12.110 --> 01:00:14.740
Beatles, Stones, The Who. You know, I think

01:00:15.640 --> 01:00:18.440
people, there's some people that will argue that The Who was kind of like

01:00:19.960 --> 01:00:22.780
bear with me here, but the first punk band, you know?

01:00:23.000 --> 01:00:25.540
But The Kinks were really kind of the first punk band.

01:00:25.900 --> 01:00:29.120
You know, I mean, or at least it grows out of there.

01:00:29.680 --> 01:00:59.140
Well, you know, the Kinks, sorry, John, the Kinks have such an evolved sound over their career. I mean, you go from the early stuff and all day and all the night up to come dancing in the 70s. Or 80s or whatever it was. 80s maybe. Then I think of a record like Face Dances. Yeah. The Who to me and the Kinks had a real interestingly similar trajectory. You know? The Who just had a few more bigger radio hits.

01:00:59.520 --> 01:01:29.040
But to me, the Kinks have more consistency. You just don't know the names. If you've never heard the song Picture Book by the Kinks, go listen to it. You'd be like, wait a minute, that's the band that's playing You Really Got Me? Because you think that, you think Lola. These are all songs heard, but they're like Cellular Heroes. There's so much stuff they did that's so great. You just don't think of them first. And I would argue that they were, what the who, the two,

01:01:29.520 --> 01:01:59.020
early proto-punk, you know, they kind of were the proto- they were the punk godfathers, originally, without being punk. But they also spurred on hard rock, because Van Halen covered so many King songs. Yeah. They really did. And even, like, and so you want to tie that all together, right? Like, so did Green Day, right? Yeah. But what else did they, so they did, Where Have All the Good Times Gone, they've done, they did You Really Got Me, what are there some other ones? Those are the ones they recorded. Okay, they did some other ones. I mean,

01:02:01.039 --> 01:02:29.300
Well, and half of their songs come off like that, too. So the big influences, I think, for Eddie were Cactus. He loved Cactus for some reason. You guys ever listen to Cactus? The band? The guy's an animal. It's funny because I just heard them on a show the other day or a movie or something. And I was like, what is that song? And I looked at it. It was like something about evil that we were watching the same thing. Yeah. And I was like, oh, man, I got to go get me some Cactus. No. Well, it's not Cactus.

01:02:29.540 --> 01:02:59.000
One of the greatest drummer other than Ginger Baker. Is it Apicy or Apice? Which one is it? I'll tell you what. If you don't want to get punched in the face, ask Vinny. If you want to get punched in the face, ask Carmine. Or is he just a prick, you mean? I think they have different personalities. I think Vinny probably might be a little easier to get along with. That's because he's got a cool name. I'm Vinny.

01:02:59.540 --> 01:03:29.480
And Carmine's like, I got a girl's name. No. Well, he's not the big ragu, so he's kind of pissed about that. No, I mean, come on. I mean, Carmine is a god for drums, obviously. I mean, he taught John Bonham everything he knows. But he was in Cactus. I remember correctly. Cactus is, I mean, Eddie Van Halen swears by that band. And then obviously Holesworth, but we're getting off the rails here. But those are, I think the kinks are,

01:03:29.540 --> 01:03:59.500
in his DNA though a little bit his aggressive playing I think it's there. Oh for sure. If I could throw in one more Kinks song. Oh. Destroyer. That's way out there. Oh yeah. Yeah. Oh man when that came out I heard that I bought the tape I had to tape to that and I was like man the rest of this album kind of stinks. Yeah. It's okay. It's okay. I thought Come Dancing was better after that but man. So I'm gonna transition. That song is so good. It's because you brought up Bonham and and I

01:04:00.160 --> 01:04:29.500
in putting this my personal list together never really realized that the opening to rock and roll the song rock and roll on the four album four is almost a dead ringer ripoff of the drum intro to you keep a knocking by little richard i mean like literally go put it on you're going to be like oh hey rock and roll's getting ready to start up i mean but i bring it up because i wanted to get little richard into this conversation

01:04:29.520 --> 01:04:59.460
Oh, without question. Yeah, specifically that track, because I think it's really hard and heavy and fast and stuff. And it's also kind of ominous, not just because of the Cujo, you know, kind of thing. Or not Cujo, what was it? The Christine, I think it's in Christine. And you keep a knock and it comes on the radio. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. So that gives it a little horror aspect, but in and of itself, it's a bombastic, you know, track with another raspy, high vocal.

01:04:59.540 --> 01:05:29.460
I'm glad you mentioned that period, Jay, because I think that most people would skip over that 50s. I don't want to call it rockabilly yet because it wasn't, but that rock and roll with a lot of emphasis on the roll, period. And the piano, by the way. Yes, the rollicking kind of piano. It was the old west, but in the 50s, you know, that bar saloon setting sound. Jerry Lee Lewis. Yes. Little Richard. Yes. And I saw this wonderful. There's two more I was thinking of after that.

01:05:29.540 --> 01:05:58.120
I can find this. While you're looking, I was going to say also Chuck Berry. Yeah. You know, and Bill Haley and his comments. Those four right there just burned it up. Absolutely, dude. You know, I mean, well. The songs that you could trace back from just those four and how they influence so many and all for different reasons, those four. Yeah. That's what's nuts about it. All different four. Well, you made a point about showmanship.

01:05:58.420 --> 01:06:28.300
And I think that that was kind of big too. Because. You know we've been talking a little bit about attitude. And there's no doubt that like. All of those guys had big personalities. And putting on a show was a big part of that. And Little Richard you know absolutely like very flamboyant. Just kind of big as life. Jerry Lee Lewis same thing. You know.

01:06:28.440 --> 01:06:58.400
putting his foot up on the piano and, you know, whatever. And, you know, Chuck Berry doing his duck walk across the stage and just like the showmanship of it. Like that was kind of big because while you had show people that kind of did stuff like that in prior times, it wasn't that as bombastic as that. Like it wasn't as over the top as that. You had people doing, you know, you know, maybe

01:06:58.440 --> 01:07:28.400
semi-wild stuff, but not like that. I mean, that was just almost unbelievable. T.R., all I could think of when you said that is people not being as bombastic. All I could think of was Sha-na-na. I put this photo in the chat you guys are going to look at, and it's Fats Domino with Little Richard on a piano. For those of you that can't see the picture, which is everybody, it's basically this massive piano that Fats Domino

01:07:28.940 --> 01:07:58.360
playing on the bottom with a piano that's put on top of that with Little Richard on it that has a piano on top of that with Jerry Lee Lewis on it. And I can't quite make out who's on top of that. But there's it's Brian Auger is his name. And it's from a was from a monkey's TV special. I don't know if Brian Auger played keys with him or something. But oh my gosh. Yeah. So it's a four tiered piano stacked on top of it. And each guy is stacked on top of the other guy.

01:07:58.420 --> 01:08:26.799
I'm going to see if I can find that performance because it says it was a monkey. That's really funny. That's got to be, yeah. I mean. You know, sadly we can't talk about Fats Domino because he was not heavy. His was more of a kind of a happy type of music. But boy. Blueberry Hill. It was another just, it's that whole period. See, it's funny to hear you say that you don't listen to a lot of music, but I don't generally either. But when I get a hankering for it,

01:08:30.520 --> 01:08:31.900
I overdose on it.

01:08:33.520 --> 01:08:35.040
We got to hold for a second there. Sorry.

01:08:36.440 --> 01:08:37.440
Cause you know, it's funny.

01:08:37.940 --> 01:08:39.640
I put on Bill Haley and right away,

01:08:40.180 --> 01:08:42.020
I didn't think of Bill Haley and his comments.

01:08:42.480 --> 01:08:44.040
I thought of happy days right off the bat.

01:08:44.520 --> 01:08:44.680
Yeah.

01:08:45.040 --> 01:08:48.700
You know, because that obviously rock around the clock was the song that

01:08:49.060 --> 01:08:53.080
is the intro, but so many like,

01:08:55.279 --> 01:09:24.859
Who is a Keith Richards was just Chuck Berry? He literally based his whole thing off of Chuck Berry. He loved Chuck Berry. And to the point where I think there was that Chuck Berry live CD that came out with all the all-stars on it. I think Keith Richards is on that. But you listen to all this early Stone stuff, that's all Chuck Berry riffing. It is. Yeah, that style, certainly. Yeah. I'm glad that we at least got a few of them in,

01:09:25.279 --> 01:09:54.320
because while it's great to talk about the blues artists before that, somebody had to bring the up-tempo style and the flamboyant style. Yeah, because that kind of set the tone for rock and roll, like the rock shows, right? This is what you do if you're a rock and roll performer, right? I think that kind of... It wasn't because of Marty McFly, okay, folks? Let's get this straight. I mean, really, that became the blueprint.

01:09:55.280 --> 01:10:24.360
And it had to be kind of big and flamboyant like that to be like, you know, like a really you've got to do something that nobody's done before or just take it over like the next level. And these guys definitely did that. Yeah. Albeit some other careers were short lived in terms of the music production. I mean, they parlayed a whole career for decades off that small production.

01:10:25.080 --> 01:10:54.880
Yeah. But it's funny. That's what's the line. You may not like this, but your kids are going to love this music. Yeah. Right. Yeah. So I, if anybody, I mean, we'll just go start rapid firing here. If some of you guys want to start throwing out some bands and some people have some lists. So a lot of my stuff has been brought up now. So I'm just going to kind of run through what I've got. Yeah. And then I can do stuff later. Let's get through. Would that be the easiest for us to each?

01:10:54.920 --> 01:11:24.640
run through our stuff? No, I mean, it's not that many. It's just like two or three things that I wanted to mention. So, you know, aside from the most obvious 60s bands like the Beatles, the Stones, there's other bands that definitely brought heavy to the people. All of these, I think all of these, except for maybe one, have already been mentioned. The Kinks, we were just talking about. The Animals, House of the Rise of the Sun. Yep, that was big. The Who, of course, Cream, Hendrix,

01:11:24.900 --> 01:11:54.500
The Doors, The Stooges, MC5, all of those guys. And actually, there's just another one for the moment, because John just talked about this one and broke my heart because I wanted to do this one, but it's okay. So one of the first songs I ever liked, I picked up on the TV. You know where I'm going. For the first two seasons, the theme song for Happy Days was Rock Around the Clock by Bill Haley.

01:11:54.560 --> 01:12:22.000
in his comments. It was that sort of disjointed, anxious sound that the song immediately took up residence in, like, the aforementioned cockles of my heart and still lives there rent-free today. That rockabilly groove, it just deserves a spot on these lists because it's like a, you know, it's frantic and it kind of makes you want to at least tap your foot, if not bang your head. That guitar solo is all kinds of heavy.

01:12:23.520 --> 01:12:53.320
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, right. And one thing suddenly of Brian Setzer, I mean, you know, I'm glad you mentioned the MC5 too. That's the clang out of Detroit again. Oh, yeah. That record came out in 69 to be fair, but was recorded in the 68 live. So it was recorded before the Sabbath record. And that's about as heavy as it gets in 69. Well, Sabbath didn't record their record till what October of 69. So I mean, there's a lot of stuff that came out before. Of course, I mean, all these, it's the thing,

01:12:53.360 --> 01:13:23.340
The Reason I Say Is Because All These Bands, They're Only In The Studio For Like Two Months, Three Months Max, Back Then. It Wasn't Until The Fleetwood Max And All Those Bands Started Doing Stuff, Taking A Year To Do An Album And Everything. I'm going to run through my list really fast too, and I'll be pretty quick, but I had mentioned the Screamin' Jay Hawkins. Check out the Dave Clark Five. Bits and Pieces specifically also look up on a song called Glad All Over, both on the same record. I think I'm going to

01:13:23.380 --> 01:13:53.300
and leave aside my Elvis because we got to talk about Elvis. Yardbirds have a million good examples. The one I put on my list is called Still I'm Sad because it's this big, weird, echoey, almost druidic kind of thing. And like chanting. Why did I know that was coming up? Yeah. Jay being the deep purple rainbow fan, right? Yeah. And Jeff Beck is on that, you know, too. I know. I want to throw out early Fleetwood Mac, Peter Green Fleetwood Mac. Thank you.

01:13:53.360 --> 01:14:23.340
because they're on my list. Thank you for mentioning that. And specifically, by the way, Green Manalishi came from that. Oh, well is another great track, which inspired Black Dog by Led Zeppelin. You know, I always I've always known that song. It's always been in, you know, don't ask me what to think of you. But I had no idea who or what that was. I just know the song. Joe Jackson has an amazing version of Oh, well. Oh, yeah, he does. Really good version. It's a great song. And Peter Green deserves his due for early

01:14:26.080 --> 01:14:30.340
I'm just gonna run through some song here rumble by link ray is like a very early

01:14:30.500 --> 01:14:35.120
important heavy thing that's the when you if you don't know the song when you hear it you'll know it's in the

01:14:35.240 --> 01:14:53.340
background of a lot of movies endless sleep by Jody Reynolds I really like to that example check out a weird song called love me by the phantom which was an old rockabilly thing and it's the strangest fucking song I mentioned that pardon my language David Dave Clark five there's some good standout tracks the Kelty Skelter by the

01:14:53.360 --> 01:15:23.280
The Beatles, which is purposely meant to be a heavy song. There's guys like Dwayne Eddy, Eddie Cochran, and then I'm going to throw out one we haven't mentioned yet, but we have to, and I'll stop here with my list, which is Buddy Holly. Oh, I'm so glad you mentioned him. I wanted to mention him. You know, a lot of that stuff is done on the Peggy Sue, for instance, a lot of the Steve Harris, you know, galloping part there is done on one of the Toms, or maybe the floor Toms.

01:15:23.360 --> 01:15:53.320
on the thing is where that comes from in Buddy Holly's music, but he's like the original speed metal guy. Yeah. I also should. And so let me also throw one other thing too, which is Dick Dale. Yeah. Surf music. Surf music. And that's right in TR's wheelhouse with no words. Yeah. That's right. Oh, there's some yelling in there. I mean, yeah. Hey, Jay. Yeah. It's funny you bring that up about Buddy Holly being the early, the first speed guy, because a lot of

01:15:53.360 --> 01:16:00.900
guys look like buddy holly today now all right actually let me throw out one specific

01:16:01.080 --> 01:16:08.740
detail and it's called uh my zulu or misery lou i'm not sure but if you've seen um and i and it's a shame

01:16:08.880 --> 01:16:12.340
because i don't want people to associate with this but if you've seen pulp fiction it's the pulp fiction

01:16:12.520 --> 01:16:17.659
song yeah you know it's like in that i was doing wipe out there but you know what i mean yeah but but

01:16:17.680 --> 01:16:46.760
But that early surf stuff was all about double picking. Trimolo. And those were 50s guys. And Dan Cuello. And that led directly to black metal. Yeah, I was just going to say. You know, I mean, it's funny because I just want to believe that some of these guys, you pull them out of history and put them in front of your record player and play them some of what, that they would probably go towards the genres you think they would, you know, as far as appreciating what it's all come to. Yeah.

01:16:47.400 --> 01:17:17.300
Yeah. Do you mind if I run through a few too then? Please do. Real quick. T.R., if I'm stepping on your toes because you haven't done a list, just let me know and I'll stop and I'll let you talk about them. You want to go prog? We'll go prog, but maybe one of the heaviest prog songs ever is one of the first ones. 21st Century Schizoid Man from King Crimson, the very first song. That gets credited with so much stuff. Real quick, the MC5 song, I think we're all thinking about is Kick Out the Jams.

01:17:17.400 --> 01:17:46.840
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Which Boyce or Colt has an amazing live version of. The Stooges song is I Want to Be Your Dog. But you think about that song in 69. Nobody was doing that music. No one. It's kind of scary. It is. And that song basically is everything that follows for Iggy Pop after that. And those guys were neighbors, by the way. I mean, MC5 and the Stooges. Yeah. And it's all in that weird, different place. Detroit place. A song we haven't mentioned yet.

01:17:47.560 --> 01:18:16.540
Where does Heavy Metal come from? Born to be wild. I thought somebody would go there, and that's a good place to go. It's so chugga-chugga-chugga-chugga. Aside from, like, coining the phrase Heavy Metal. Right. Yeah. A couple other ones. You mentioned Helter Skelter, and then obviously there's I Want You, She's So Heavy, which is, say, the first Doom song ever. But nobody ever talks about the song The End.

01:18:16.640 --> 01:18:46.380
If you think about it, there's a drum solo in the song. There's three different guitars doing three different guitar solos in it. And it's just this fast-paced thing. And it actually was their very last song ever. It's actually not the album Get Back. That's probably their heaviest record, too. In some weird way, too. Well, yeah. Some stuff off the White Album's pretty heavy, too. A song I completely forgot about, the Now song from Pink Floyd, off of the more original soundtrack. If you go back and listen to that,

01:18:46.640 --> 01:18:46.800
Yeah.

01:18:47.640 --> 01:18:54.360
Their Little Stuff was more psychedelic. That one's a little more rock psychedelic as opposed to drug psychedelic.

01:18:54.560 --> 01:18:54.640
Yeah.

01:18:56.220 --> 01:19:15.480
And one more I'll mention before, and I have a longer list of bigger names with fewer songs, but a song you wouldn't think of, but had a ton of attitude, was fast tempo, Fortunate Son from CCR, from Creedence Clitor Revival, which there would be the political aspect to it with the lyrics, with attitude.

01:19:16.520 --> 01:19:46.500
fast-paced song to the point, kick you right in the teeth when you hear it. You're like, whoa, what was that? And it's only like two and a half minutes. It's a quick in and out. I circled them, and I'm glad you brought them up, because I regret not bringing them up, because they were kind of a proto-metal band in a weird sort of way. A little bit, and a little bit of a bluesy, and a little, just, they were, well, they had some, yeah, like, because Born on the Bayou kind of has that, like, that there's, you want to talk about that Devil's Interval, like, Born on the Bayou kind of has that, like,

01:19:46.520 --> 01:20:16.480
all over the place. Kind of like the original Sludge Band with some of those songs. Yeah. Yeah. And they're all, there's all a kind of weird. And where are they from? They're not even from Louisiana. Yeah. I mean, they're from Lowe. They're from the Bay Area, aren't they? Yeah. Beach Bay. You know, um. Just like the Doobie Brothers. From the Bay Area. I want to go to somebody that George mentioned too, which is the Doors, because. Yeah. And it kind of, because of what you just said, that they have this underpinning thing. I always thought it was really interesting to me about the Doors.

01:20:16.520 --> 01:20:46.500
was first of all they were from la and all of the really hippy dippy bands were from san francisco yeah and another really important thing that came out of la during this period was uh manson right and i mean what i mean is that was the end of the 60s kind of thing and the doors were more like that weird edgy dark manson-esque version of what was going on in the 60s versus they're the end well you know you know they thought they were they really were the doors

01:20:46.540 --> 01:21:16.500
The Doors were just kind of scary. Oh, you mean The Doors. I'm sorry, I thought you meant The Manson Clan. No, I meant the song, The End, by The Doors. Yeah. Love that song. Love it. And that's very bad. They have some riffy songs like, what's the, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun. I can't remember the name. It's a Wild Child. Yeah. But they're just a spooky band, you know? And Jim was a little out of control. I always think of them as like, that's what the LA and it's all of its glitz. And it was offset by

01:21:17.420 --> 01:21:46.500
I'm sorry I was interrupting I apologize it was offset by that weird kind of carnival ish sounding keyboards and organs and you're like this doesn't make sense you get this blues guitar player would like this you know kind of weird it's sort of like something like it this way comes it's like a weird circus act you know yeah it's like a carnival you know right with like some acid poet you know

01:21:46.520 --> 01:22:16.400
He's smarter than everybody else. He's just high. That's all it is. But I very much think of them as a kind of, they were a stepping stone towards metal, without question. Yeah, and I get it. I get why people love them, and I get why people hate them. Because I could see you're like, oh, this band's terrible. Then I put on like L.A. Woman, I'm like, what? This is awesome. That song's brilliant. And I can watch Live at the Hollywood Bowl a thousand times. I love that, but they, yeah. Huge Doors fan. Yeah, some of their lyrics, like, you know,

01:22:16.440 --> 01:22:45.700
We want the world and we want it now. By him screaming that out. Yeah. You know what? When I was a kid, I kind of was like, I just figured something out, man. When I was listening to The Doors and it's 5 to 1. 5 to 1, baby. And then he says, I always thought this was a really interesting juxtaposition of words. 5 to 1, 1 and 5. No one here gets out alive. And then he says, they got the guns, but we got the numbers. And it starts with him saying 5 to 1, 1 and 5. And he's saying, we've got the numbers.

01:22:45.820 --> 01:23:15.560
like some numerology BS. And it just, his lyrics are scattered with weird things like that. You know, like a strange, another good example is Mr. Mojo Rising, which is in. Well, yeah, he's living in Africa right now, right? Well, no, but I mean, Mr. Mojo Rising is. Yeah, that was the whole thing. Wasn't that was his going to be his name if he, if he decided to just disappear and act like he was dead? Well, no, but there's a word for that. It's a scramble. It's a word scramble because all those letters spelled Jim Morrison. No, I know. Yeah. That was his kind of alter ego if he disappeared.

01:23:15.580 --> 01:23:45.480
What is that phenomenon? Not phenomenon, but what is that? Anagram. Thank you. It's an anagram, yeah. Oh, I think that's a Rush song, so I got him in. Anagram for Mongo. Anagram for Mongo. Say that again. Do it again. Rich. Did you just do anagram for Mongo? Anagram for Mongo? Well, I mean, TR did it. I always loved that. I thought, I hope everybody gets that joke. And of course they do, but I don't know if they do. And I wonder which one of them said that.

01:23:45.580 --> 01:24:15.540
in the studio. Anagram for Mongo. I think it was Telegram for Mongo. No, it was. That's the joke. One of them was like, hey, that sounds like... Yeah. Tierra, you got a bunch of stuff you want to spit out? Yeah, just a few. We've talked about quite a few things, but I just want to toss a few more in. One is The Ventures. They had Walked Up, Don't Run. They were one of the early

01:24:15.580 --> 01:24:45.400
Bands to use fuzz and flanging guitar effects as early as 1958. A guitarist that nobody's mentioned yet is Gene Vincent. And you want to talk about some weird songs. This dude had a song called Cat Man in 1957 that was just out there. And, you know, it's funny that you guys mentioned some of these wild, you know, Screamin' Jay and all these other things that were,

01:24:45.580 --> 01:25:13.700
There was this period in the mid-50s where they were kind of voodoo stuff and weird stuff and just outlandish, crazy songs where they would speak and talk and say things in a funny way and the guitars were doing weird things.

01:25:15.560 --> 01:25:20.000
weird period of time where it just seemed kind of before its time.

01:25:20.430 --> 01:25:21.800
Cause when you listen to that stuff now,

01:25:22.060 --> 01:25:22.760
it's kind of like,

01:25:23.200 --> 01:25:23.280
wow,

01:25:24.310 --> 01:25:24.440
I,

01:25:24.750 --> 01:25:25.100
you know,

01:25:25.400 --> 01:25:28.980
when you put it in the context of everything else that was going on at

01:25:28.980 --> 01:25:29.380
the time,

01:25:29.920 --> 01:25:33.040
it's hard to believe that it even came out because it just seems so

01:25:33.280 --> 01:25:33.420
weird.

01:25:33.960 --> 01:25:34.460
Can I make a,

01:25:34.520 --> 01:25:35.640
can I make a suggestion though?

01:25:35.700 --> 01:25:38.320
Socioeal anthropological suggestion as to that,

01:25:38.520 --> 01:25:43.420
and that they were living under the cloud of nuclear get under your

01:25:43.560 --> 01:25:43.800
desks.

01:25:44.350 --> 01:25:44.920
And I honestly,

01:25:44.990 --> 01:25:45.280
you know,

01:25:45.320 --> 01:26:14.620
It's just the way that the first nuclear bomb, Japan's artistic reaction to that was Godzilla. You know, that's why Godzilla exists. Right. And so I would argue, and there are probably a lot of good anthropological reasons for this, but that, and one of them, just that everybody's belts were a little too tight in the 50s. But, or, you know what I mean, their ties were too tight. But, but that, that glooming sort of like, you know, what do you call it? Nuclear disaster drills in elementary schools.

01:26:14.720 --> 01:26:44.680
must have had a psychological effect. Yeah, absolutely. You know what I mean? Or whatever it was. So, Jay, you raised a good point that I wanted to kind of amplify. And that is how tied down stuff was, right? You start to get this rebel culture in the 50s that prior to that, there had never really been a rebel culture. The only time... They'll see fighting wars, that's why. Well, exactly. And prior to that,

01:26:44.720 --> 01:27:14.700
that you had a depression so like that you know you almost have to go back to the 20s to find like kind of excess right where where you know you had these people that were just doing whatever they wanted and it was crazy and it was whatever um so you know culturally and on top of that there had never been a youth culture like prior to that nobody put any stock in what kids or young people were doing

01:27:14.700 --> 01:27:44.620
It was the adults were in charge and that was it. And you get into the 50s and it's like, you know, you have these kind of rebellious teens and rebel without a cause. And you have all this kind of a shift in the whole paradigm that, you know, kids don't mean anything. And they start to kind of establish a culture of their own that basically rejects everything.

01:27:44.720 --> 01:27:46.500
that their parents ever told them.

01:27:47.180 --> 01:27:53.280
And so that was, I think, a very big part.

01:27:53.310 --> 01:27:58.980
You have that beat generation in the 50s that kind of leads right into the 60s hippies.

01:28:00.320 --> 01:28:07.100
And that culture shift kind of enables all of this music to take place.

01:28:07.330 --> 01:28:13.860
Because if you don't have the audience for it, then it just doesn't go anywhere.

01:28:14.560 --> 01:28:43.740
So you just hit the nail on the head and what happened was World War II. Everybody came home. Baby boom happened. Suddenly there were more children than there had ever been in the United States. And there was this idyllic presentation of people with affordable housing, all these different things that happened post-war. But that would be like, what, 46 to 49, getting into 52 maybe a little bit. Now some of these kids are starting to get ideas and stuff like that. And some of them are a little bit like, why do all these houses look the same? I don't want to go to church. I don't want to do this.

01:28:44.060 --> 01:28:47.720
You really hit it and it's interesting because we have

01:28:48.620 --> 01:28:53.980
bear with me here. I don't mean this unkindly but the culture that we the four of us have grown up in

01:28:54.520 --> 01:28:57.960
is overwhelmingly oppressive

01:29:00.380 --> 01:29:05.980
baby boomer culture. I mean up to it including now that one of the biggest things that's about to happen is going to be

01:29:06.490 --> 01:29:12.300
the retirement industry and you know I mean and then funeral parlors are going to go crazy. The most important

01:29:13.980 --> 01:29:16.540
generation through all of our lives has been the baby boomers.

01:29:16.940 --> 01:29:18.840
And they've influenced everything that's happened.

01:29:19.120 --> 01:29:19.380
You know?

01:29:20.340 --> 01:29:24.800
Anyway, so I mean, but, so I think what you're saying makes an awful lot of sense.

01:29:25.080 --> 01:29:31.980
You know, another thing that probably influenced the Rebels of the 50s, Catcher in the Rye.

01:29:33.440 --> 01:29:33.840
Absolutely.

01:29:34.600 --> 01:29:35.740
1951, I just looked it up.

01:29:36.540 --> 01:29:37.980
And, you know, that guy was like...

01:29:37.980 --> 01:29:40.520
But that was also like when the Biker movies started coming out.

01:29:42.420 --> 01:30:10.500
Yeah, but he was just like, you know, F this and F that and screw you and I'm not doing that. He was a very bad influence on that generation. I think actually we should give more credit to the 50s than we do because now the 50s are looked upon as a negative, but I'm thinking of all the music that came out. And there's another aspect that's not music related that we don't talk about. All the great sci-fi films started in the 50s.

01:30:10.580 --> 01:30:40.520
But that has spurred on everything that we see today. And so many aspects to the point where they keep redoing all those films, but not to sidetrack into movies or films, TV shows, but the idea of the 50s, I think, had a good reputation. Then Gen X shows up. And like we do, we're going to cut this place up.

01:30:42.040 --> 01:30:44.260
And then we're going to tell everyone how they're wrong.

01:30:44.940 --> 01:30:47.020
Both directions, pre and post us.

01:30:47.840 --> 01:30:50.860
But then it became like, oh, the evil baby boomers.

01:30:50.950 --> 01:30:57.400
And not to comment on what you said, Jay, but that has become kind of mantra for some people.

01:30:57.680 --> 01:31:04.480
But I don't think we realize the cultural stuff that we keep forgetting came, that gave us everything we have today, came from the 50s.

01:31:04.660 --> 01:31:06.040
I came full circle.

01:31:06.430 --> 01:31:10.220
And I think this is just natural in people who seek out art like we do.

01:31:10.260 --> 01:31:40.120
and under any guise. I was an 80s kid, 70s kid, then an 80s teenager. And I lived through the 80s. It was the primary force of music in my life when I was a teenager. Then I got really into the 70s. Then I got really into the 60s. And then I got really into the 50s. And I was like, the 50s were awesome, dude. I love the 50s. And that's almost my preferred decade at this point. If I could choose one to live in, it would probably be the 50s, believe it or not.

01:31:40.260 --> 01:32:10.240
You know, it's scary. All of us. It's coming back, I hear. Yeah, well, that part, no. If you think about it, we're all roughly the same within three years of each other as a group. When we were younger, 10, 11, 12, the 50s weren't that far from us. No, that's exactly right. Well, there were still people like, you know, I mean, so it's funny you should mention this, John, because

01:32:10.260 --> 01:32:40.240
Somebody just sent me a link to a some sort of spreadsheet or some kind of listing of all the shows that took place in the Philadelphia spectrum. And I looked at that list and Frank Sinatra was doing shows in 75 with Ella Fitzgerald. Like, yeah. And it was like, I thought, oh, my God. And I remember seeing these people on like Merv Griffin and like some of

01:32:40.240 --> 01:33:10.220
these shows in the 70s that were kind of big in the 50s and 60s and they were still around they were still doing stuff so you're right like we were still we were getting the echoes of that well we had television shows you had happy days fall by laverne and churley were all about the 50s yeah and it wasn't until jack moved in with two young women you know in santa monica and larry shows up you know before we started getting before things really started kind of

01:33:10.260 --> 01:33:11.220
shifting away.

01:33:11.720 --> 01:33:12.700
No, it was the nostalgia wave.

01:33:13.070 --> 01:33:14.900
The nostalgia wave is sold to the 30-year-olds.

01:33:15.020 --> 01:33:16.940
That's why Sean and I was huge in the 60s.

01:33:17.450 --> 01:33:18.140
Yeah, all that stuff.

01:33:18.260 --> 01:33:21.940
And we were still hearing about them in the late 70s still, a lot of that stuff.

01:33:22.420 --> 01:33:26.840
You know, I love, T.R., I love to hear you talk about that stuff, too, because I feel the same way.

01:33:26.930 --> 01:33:32.220
Like, it's not at all weird to me that I saw Jimmy Stewart on the Johnny Carson show, you know, guys.

01:33:32.400 --> 01:33:32.480
Yeah.

01:33:33.200 --> 01:33:35.140
And Cary Grant I saw interviewed and people.

01:33:35.880 --> 01:34:05.780
And because I had a connection to that level of generation, they had a connection to vaudeville. And so I know what vaudeville is. Right, right. Yeah. You watch the Marx Brothers. Like the Marx Brothers, like some of them were still around in the 70s, you know. People from the Confederate War were still around in the 70s. I was watching Cheers the other day. We started like, you know, binging from the beginning. And Cheers started in 1983, I believe.

01:34:05.860 --> 01:34:35.740
it was. And there was this old guy on there and he looked familiar to me. So I looked him up. He was born in 1896. Oh my God. And so in 83, you know, he was, he was old guy, but he wasn't that old. You know, it was like the last union and Confederate soldiers died in our lifetimes. Yeah. Yeah. They were still having meetings when we were born. They were still having annual meetings. We're like, I mean, they were showing up in canes and there was seven of them, but they were coming. Yeah. I can't, I don't know.

01:34:35.880 --> 01:35:05.820
who it was. I don't know if it was Johnny Carson or who was before Johnny Carson? Was it Jack Parr? Jack Parr, I think. Yeah, I don't know who it was, but they had like the last person who fought in the Civil War was a guest on the show that night. And I was just like, I got to look to see if this is true. But then I was like, why am I going to waste my time? Because the odds are high that it probably was true. It's just you're that old now, dude. And then you just probably don't remember something like that because it was 40 or 50 years ago.

01:35:06.540 --> 01:35:07.780
It's a weird feeling though

01:35:09.240 --> 01:35:10.740
But it all comes out of this

01:35:11.600 --> 01:35:13.080
It's all relevant conversation

01:35:13.300 --> 01:35:14.820
because I do think the 50s

01:35:15.040 --> 01:35:16.200
We're talking about the cultural

01:35:17.200 --> 01:35:17.940
embracing of heavy

01:35:18.380 --> 01:35:19.540
is what we were talking about

01:35:19.660 --> 01:35:21.620
How the hell did this happen?

01:35:23.940 --> 01:35:24.900
If you don't mind

01:35:24.930 --> 01:35:27.200
I'm going to just rattle off a few more fans

01:35:27.300 --> 01:35:28.940
We talked about Cream

01:35:30.340 --> 01:35:31.680
Obviously they were pretty heavy

01:35:31.880 --> 01:35:33.080
and they started in 66

01:35:33.500 --> 01:35:34.640
God, were they heavy

01:35:36.020 --> 01:36:03.920
Spencer Davis Group. That was 1963. And there was a lot of energy there. I don't know if you'd call it heavy, but it was certainly energetic. An often listed influence for bands that you and I know and love. I hear a lot of guys that I know and say, oh, Spencer Davis Group has really got my start. And then, of course, you follow that into traffic.

01:36:04.660 --> 01:36:31.980
in 67, which had a lot of kind of heavy tunes that, while they didn't necessarily crush your brain or anything, they were definitely in a direction that I don't think had really previously been tread. Another band that I thought about was the Small Faces, which was Steve Marriott's group before he did Humble Pie.

01:36:34.060 --> 01:36:36.420
You want to talk about like

01:36:38.300 --> 01:36:41.940
You know, like George is always quick to point out how I am

01:36:42.480 --> 01:36:46.280
Not a big vocals, you know, lyrical guy

01:36:46.480 --> 01:36:49.140
But like I will tell you like Steve Marriott's vocals

01:36:49.880 --> 01:36:53.140
I will always listen to them whatever he's doing because

01:36:53.960 --> 01:36:57.280
It just it sounds like he's laying it out

01:36:57.540 --> 01:37:00.200
Like he just can't get any more out of himself

01:37:00.780 --> 01:37:30.180
and the emotion and the and the and just the pure i can't even describe it but it just sounds like he's squeezing everything out of the lemon you know what i mean like and he's like three feet tall you know i mean anyways 110 pounds you know you guys did you guys do an episode on um live at the film mark because i thought there were i saw something where that was referred to you didn't i don't think so no we may have it may have come up i've talked about humble pie yeah it may have come up then well

01:37:30.400 --> 01:37:59.120
First of all, I'm a great lover of Steve Marriott and Humble Pie and Small Faces. And I apologize for bringing a cheap band in here, but I read an interview with somebody in Kiss one time, and it was Paul Stanley, and he was saying, and he saw all those guys back in the day. He's like, yeah, I saw Zeppelin in New York, I saw them all, blah, blah, blah. And they were like, who left the impression? And he said, Steve Marriott. There's nobody that I ever saw perform that I was more blown away by.

01:37:59.160 --> 01:38:28.880
And then they got to talking as a band, the four original members of Kiss, and that was like one guy they could all agree on. And I mention that because I've also heard him brought up so many other times as a huge influence for modern hard rock performers. And I also personally love him. I think he's just so seriously cool. So I think, oh, and yeah, I'm sure we've all mentioned Deep Purple. You know, they started in 68.

01:38:29.160 --> 01:38:55.660
Obviously, they weren't super heavy yet, but they were getting there. Somebody that we haven't talked about really, well, we did a little bit, Billy Gibbons. He was around back in 69 and opening for Hendrix on one of those early tours when he was with his, I don't know what they were called, the 13th floor elevators or whatever they were. So, you know.

01:38:55.960 --> 01:38:57.700
No, they were the moving sidewalks.

01:38:58.320 --> 01:38:58.600
Yeah, yeah.

01:38:58.860 --> 01:39:27.480
They named themselves that after the 13th Floor Elevators. That's it, right. Which was Rocky Erickson's band. Yeah. So, anyway. And then the other thing that I wanted to mention was just a couple more. Roy Orbison. When you think of Oh Pretty Woman, I mean, obviously Van Halen kind of amped that up, but that's a cool riff, right?

01:39:30.300 --> 01:39:57.820
That's a metal riff right there. And his vocals are almost, and bear with me here, what a lot of metal vocalists might be seeing as it's almost like a novelty vocal because it's so high and it's not novelty. I think he was a beautiful singer. But I mean, Robert Plant would be much more rooted than that than 50 other, you know, 50s rock guys. Novelty wasn't the right word for it, but you catch me. Well, yeah, I mean, definitely unique, right?

01:39:58.840 --> 01:40:28.680
Yeah. And extreme. I would say that. I don't know that we mentioned. Did anybody mention Bo Diddley? No. No, but I was going to. I mean, definitely. Here's a guy that definitely had, that was tapped into what would come later in terms of guitar work. Yeah. Big time. So, yeah, I think that covers pretty much all the, you know, all the bands and kind of things that I wanted to mention. Well, there's,

01:40:28.860 --> 01:40:58.760
There's two that we haven't mentioned yet. I'm just a little surprised. I've got a few more. Oh, go ahead, George. And if you don't mention them, then I'll go after you then. Okay. So this is piggybacking on something that was already mentioned. Someone who I've always kind of dug, but who never got his due, thanks to flying with Buddy Holly, was the big bopper. Oh, yeah. His song Chantilly Lace isn't anywhere near dark or metal, but it's just got a vibe and a bit of an edge.

01:40:58.860 --> 01:41:25.260
maybe that 15-year-old George was bobbing his head too. Do you know who gave up their seat on that airplane to let either Richie or the Big Bob around him? Oh, yeah. I know that one and I can't remember. Famous country artist. Waylon Jennings. Waylon Jennings. Oh, yeah. Yeah, he was on that tour and one of them had to do laundry or some nonsense and he was like, eh, just take my seat on the plane. He talks about it in some of his songs. Yeah.

01:41:28.860 --> 01:41:58.820
I'm surprised that unless I missed it I hadn't heard yet but Arthur Brown's fire no I didn't bring that but that's a good one we didn't yeah I am the god of hell fire and I bring you fire wait a minute did Gene Simmons get that from there that sounds like god of fun did Dio steal huh you know it's funny because the guy doesn't have a lot of famous songs but he influenced a heck of a lot of people tons of people

01:41:58.840 --> 01:42:27.320
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. All right. Two more adjacent ones. Captain Beefheart. Yeah. You know, that stuff made it okay to come way out of right field and be totally bonkers. And I only just recently was able to start getting into some Captain Beefheart. And I was like, all right, this is weird. I get it. And speaking of weird, Frank Zappa, he deserves a seat at that table.

01:42:27.900 --> 01:42:57.720
He may not have been a big metal fan, but certainly a lot of metal people were friends of his. Oh, you know, I was gonna, you know, he and he, he was tight with Captain B for I guess you probably know that. Yeah. So it's interesting that because I was going to say, okay, well, if you're not going to say Frank's happy here, then I don't know what you're going to say, but yeah, totally legit, totally legit. Um, guys who are willing to push boundaries. Um, and that's almost enough to be heavy. Yeah. Yeah. So I'll, I'll mention a couple real quick. Um, we never really talked about

01:43:01.120 --> 01:43:27.680
I don't know why. Well, there's a reason why I bring him up, though. Not so much because he's always the obvious case, but his feedback and his exploration there really influenced a ton of people. Not so much his soloing, but all the feedback stuff really. And Pink Floyd, for that matter, would deserve a lot of credit there, too, on a bigger scale. We did briefly mention Cream, but I can't be understated how for four albums,

01:43:27.760 --> 01:43:57.720
in what four or five total years if that the influence they had on everyone this is where i was going to get my original rush dig in george uh well that's the song crossroads everyone always says sunshine of your love but there are other heavy songs from cream that yeah you know crossroads being a cover obviously but they've got a few others yeah if you don't know if you love though has the riff it has the it does it does but then you've got like songs like nsu and that one that looks like it's a swabbler but

01:44:03.539 --> 01:44:04.820
But then,

01:44:05.080 --> 01:44:08.420
the album that has maybe the first

01:44:09.200 --> 01:44:11.780
written heavy metal song before Black Sabbath

01:44:12.840 --> 01:44:14.380
came out just before it,

01:44:14.560 --> 01:44:17.640
The New Yardbirds, a.k.a. Led Zeppelin.

01:44:18.980 --> 01:44:20.980
I mean, Communication Breakdown might be

01:44:21.540 --> 01:44:22.380
quite possibly the first

01:44:23.600 --> 01:44:25.720
kind of constructed metal song if you think about it.

01:44:26.300 --> 01:44:27.540
The big riff at the beginning,

01:44:28.240 --> 01:44:28.780
the solo.

01:44:28.780 --> 01:44:31.400
I would say it was tied with Dazed and Confused, actually.

01:44:31.520 --> 01:44:32.400
I think those two.

01:44:33.060 --> 01:44:34.960
Right, I'm talking about on the up-tempo.

01:44:35.700 --> 01:44:36.280
Yeah, fair enough.

01:44:36.480 --> 01:44:37.420
For an up-tempo song.

01:44:37.580 --> 01:44:39.140
Yeah, Dazed and Confused, obviously, we would have.

01:44:39.300 --> 01:44:44.020
I mean, that album, and it's half blues, and like you said, it's half, you know, a Willie Dixon album.

01:44:44.900 --> 01:44:47.140
It's actually, there's a lot of covers on that album.

01:44:47.560 --> 01:44:49.800
I would argue it's actually the first heavy metal album.

01:44:50.340 --> 01:44:56.500
But it's, but that's from, they wrote, they were recording those songs in 68.

01:44:56.560 --> 01:45:25.640
So is, you know, Sabbath was recording in 69. I know. Boy, those two albums right there, I think. That's where it comes from. I think so. I mean, Sabbath gets the credit because, come on, let's be honest. I mean, that's where the 70s and the 80s come from. Obviously, we're talking the roots of these things. But Sabbath does get it still for me because there's no single on that album. Come on. Let's be honest. Who is the idiot that signed this band on the label set?

01:45:25.700 --> 01:45:55.680
this is going to be some good stuff. What's N.I.B. stand for? Don't worry about that song. That is a good question, John. Maybe they were like, you know, we need a tax write-off, so go out and just run across the street. They had to go out and record, just like with Paranoid, didn't they have to record, is it Evil Woman? Is that the one that they had that wasn't on the original album that they had to add just to give it some radio play? Yeah. I mean, so that's why, to me, it's always going to be the first effect

01:45:56.580 --> 01:46:25.680
Maybe not the first band to do it, but the first official one. I would say so, yeah. You know, you brought up, in bringing up Zeppelin, there's something that's been kind of gnawing at my brain that I want to just throw out real quick, and it's back to the Link Wray Rumble song. I just don't know if people know this song. You guys know it, but it's a wonderful song. Not very long, but one of my favorite scenes in that not terribly good

01:46:25.700 --> 01:46:55.400
movie called It Might Get Loud. Oh, yeah. And what's his name? And Jimmy Page. Yeah, Edge and Jimmy Page. Yeah, and they do some stuff with them all together, but they also do some individual stuff. And one of my favorites is Jimmy Page. He goes to Hedley Grange where they recorded the fourth album, and he's showing them the hallway where the drums were so big. And then they're back at his house, and it's his personal record collection. And I bet you anything,

01:46:55.740 --> 01:47:25.660
His copy of Rumble is the one he bought in 1956. Oh, yeah. He puts it on the turntable. And he says, and he's like, let me show you. And he plays it. And he's just like, not saying a word. He's just like, and it's just like hanging out with one of you guys. You're just like, dude, you got to hear this. And you can see him just as excited as he probably was. Did you see that? Yeah, listen to this. It's so good, dude. And it just makes me want to hang out with Ginny Page. So if you want to experience Rumble,

01:47:25.700 --> 01:47:54.760
in the best way possible. That's a good way to do it. Yeah. I mean, you know, it's funny. We didn't even mention this song that everyone credits as the first metal song. To me, it's just a big heavy blues song. Summertime blues, obviously, from Blue Chair. I mean, that's the biggest rabbit or the biggest elephant in the room. But I think these other bands, to me, are just as important. That's the one that seems that got like the Rolling Stone tag for some reason. I don't even know if Rolling Stone did it. It just seems like it's got that tag to it. Well, there's Wild Thing is another one. Yeah.

01:47:55.160 --> 01:47:56.860
sort of considered the first punk song.

01:47:58.120 --> 01:47:59.000
Louie Louie.

01:47:59.280 --> 01:48:00.120
Yeah, Louie Louie.

01:48:00.760 --> 01:48:01.460
That's the other one.

01:48:01.980 --> 01:48:02.380
Yeah.

01:48:02.860 --> 01:48:07.820
But didn't Robert Plant say, we were always looking towards America for our influences?

01:48:08.060 --> 01:48:10.040
I mean, those guys were all 50s fans.

01:48:10.710 --> 01:48:17.000
And so to me, it goes back so much further than a few songs here and there towards the end of the 60s.

01:48:17.140 --> 01:48:17.380
Exactly.

01:48:18.040 --> 01:48:19.340
No, you're absolutely right.

01:48:19.600 --> 01:48:25.560
to the point where like you know that one of the thing they all call out was um especially the

01:48:25.660 --> 01:48:30.820
beatles and stones and stuff was a movie called the girl can't help it which is uh with little

01:48:31.100 --> 01:48:35.260
richard and some and some other 50s musicians and then they all went and saw it in technicolor and like

01:48:35.360 --> 01:48:40.900
you know the world's changed i mean elvis was already which by the way brings us back to elvis yeah

01:48:41.560 --> 01:48:48.140
the king of rock and roll well let's start at the founding stone arguably having stolen you know his

01:48:48.160 --> 01:49:18.080
music from a previous generation. But, you know, I can think of multiple Elvis tracks that exude heaviness. I mentioned, too, one is when I was trying to get to you, which is on his first record, so that'd be 50, whatever that was, and then the version he does of the comeback special was just so much heavier. Everything on the comeback special is heavier. Yeah. It really is. It's a guy straining his whole being to produce sound.

01:49:18.200 --> 01:49:47.940
Don't call it a comeback. That's right. And then I would call it a blue moon like I did. Another one I would throw out there is Mystery Train. I was curious about stuff in the 70s, you know, which counts even though it's post-7th. I was curious why you included blue moon. You know. It was a recording aspect, wasn't it? What's that? You included, George was asking why you included blue moon. The big echo chambery. Yeah.

01:49:48.140 --> 01:49:48.180
Okay.

01:49:49.020 --> 01:50:17.880
Scariness of it. I mean, it's, um, I, I, my quote at the time was, it's like the one they play in the sci-fi fiction where the monster comes out and kills the family. And everyone says run, but then nobody moves. Yeah. Right. They're all like stuck in like cement. It works in that setting. And since it works, it's heavy, but it's also just experimental and weird. You know, you, you talked about like Black Sabbath kind of being like a horror soundtrack.

01:50:17.920 --> 01:50:47.880
And Gibson just put out this Iommi documentary called The Godfather of Metal. I can't remember what it's called, but it literally just came out. And Tony Iommi is basically talking about when they were just starting. And he said that he and Geezer used to love going to horror movies and that he wanted to make music that sounded like how that made you feel.

01:50:48.620 --> 01:51:17.120
Yeah. And I'd say he nailed it. First song. Yeah. First song nailed it. Well, and they're named after a movie. Boris Karloff. And then, but that still leads to a wonderful story that I've told at least one time on the other podcast, which was when they collectively saw The Exorcist together in 70, whatever that was, they saw it as a band on tour in New York City. And they were all so scared that night they had to sleep in the sand.

01:51:22.500 --> 01:51:46.320
Like they were all just horrified by what they'd seen. And they were like, you're a root man. Yeah. That's really funny. Which we can't imagine those guys who, who like scared the crap out of like so many other people. Like you can't imagine them getting scared about anything. Right. They scared a generation of parents. Yeah, exactly. One of, one of their mouths. That was either Ozzy or geezer who tells that story. And it was just like, well, it was pathetic. And then we were just.

01:51:49.880 --> 01:52:17.900
That's really funny. Maybe we wrap it up unless you guys have other things you need to throw out. I mean. I thought we were going to do a one. Suggestion. Yeah, one thing that we feel people should listen to. Yeah, let's call that a wrap up. Let's start with you, George. All right. So this guy was mentioned earlier. I'm hopping in the Wayback Machine and going all the way back to the beginning. I'm talking about Robert Johnson, almost 100 years ago.

01:52:17.920 --> 01:52:46.720
years ago, back in the 1930s, this guy to me is the fount from which all things rock and metal flows. He influenced the blues, which in turn influenced rock, which in turn spawned heavy metal. Songs like Hellhound on My Trail, Me and the Devil Blues, the Crossroad Blues, previously mentioned. Which is now just called Crossroads. Yeah. It's no wonder that he captivated the imaginations of artists like Led Zeppelin and Eric Clapton.

01:52:47.100 --> 01:53:16.780
His songs were gritty and real and just kind of hopeless. And you know, the guy died like 27 years old. He's the inaugural member of the 27 Club. Yeah. So, you know, if you want to investigate the roots, this is a very good place to start. Ed George, he is, because of him, Sam and Dean fought the demon at the crossroads. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. If you're a supernatural fan, you know what I'm talking about. Yeah. Yeah, the crossroads come up all the time and various, uh,

01:53:17.080 --> 01:53:47.040
Other songs and art forms. And. Ralph Macchio was involved with the Crossroads. Yeah. Steve Vai. Steve Vai was involved in the Crossroads. That's right. So. Yeah. And. You know I mean the recordings are just. Terrible. Because they're so old. But they're so good. But that makes them so good. Yeah. You know. Isn't that what black metal is trying to do. I mean. Yeah. Really. You know. Yeah. George. I'm glad you brought that up.

01:53:47.100 --> 01:54:16.940
Just a quick thing. Whenever we talk about production is always coming up. If you think I mentioned Rush a lot on this, go listen to their podcast. Production comes up all the time. Who, me? No, all of us. But you know what's really funny? We all have, I mean, we all, I mean, I think I love old, bad production blue stuff. People love old, bad production black metal from the early days. I still love some of that really crappy late 80s,

01:54:16.960 --> 01:54:46.340
early 90s production on metal albums. People are like, this sounds like crap, but it just takes me back. Old Misfits stuff, you know. Oh, I love all that stuff. I get it. Not crappy production like in the 70s where Joe Walsh puts out an album and he sounds great, but you can't even hear the drummer at all on the recording. And that's in the studio. And you're like, is there even a drummer on this band? But I would argue Born Again, Black Sabbath Born Again has an impact because of its poor production. It's a darker, heavier, stranger album than it probably would have been.

01:54:46.940 --> 01:55:15.620
Production matters and including lack thereof. Yeah, I really think that's one of the thing that Robert Johnson's magic is part of that's part of his magic. That's his that's his aura, you know, everything about him is a little bit like it's coming from a ghost or a closet or far away, you know, like, how did you is this recorded in a barn? I mean, and it probably was at three o'clock in the morning. Let's get your suggestion. Oh,

01:55:16.960 --> 01:55:46.920
So I guess, you know, I don't have any real in particular things. I, I will say that I went and listened to, there were a few things that I just kind of diddled around on the internet and found like a few people I never heard of, uh, or songs I never heard of by people I had heard of. And, you know, I, like I mentioned earlier, Gene Vincent's Catman, that was kind of wild. This Johnny Guitar Watson track called

01:55:46.980 --> 01:56:16.560
bass guitar, which I was like, I can't even believe that this was done in 1954. And then this guy named James Cotton did this thing called Cotton Crop Blues in 1954. And that was kind of, kind of proto, all of that kind of stuff that we've been talking about. But in terms of just like, I don't know, we mentioned the animals in House of the Rising Sun.

01:56:16.700 --> 01:56:46.440
I kind of feel like that was kind of a heavy song with the kind of the emotive kind of vocals on that and the kind of minor key kind of tones and sounds with some slightly distorted kind of sounds on the guitars. And I would say it's suggestive of occultism in its way. Yes. Right. Because there's a mystery to it. And that's another thing that we,

01:56:47.020 --> 01:57:16.240
The word danger, I don't think, really has come up in this. And there was a dangerous element to all of this that I think when you hear this music, there is like a feeling of danger to it. And I think that that's what worried parents so drastically in the 50s, because it was something nobody had ever heard. And I think that they felt like, oh, my God, you know, what are my children going to do when they, you know, get swooped up by this, whatever.

01:57:16.480 --> 01:57:46.320
It is. They're gonna smoke the reefer. That's right. And that came out in the 30s, though, I thought, didn't it? Well, that's true. Reefer Madness. But in terms of like this dangerous element that I think people, like there's a, that devil's interval thing kind of, there's like, you know, you just raised the, you mentioned the term cult. There's like this,

01:57:47.560 --> 01:57:53.380
that kind of makes you feel like you're peering into something that you shouldn't be.

01:57:55.200 --> 01:57:59.500
There's an unknown facet to it, and it's not a good thing. Whatever it is, that's not a good thing at all.

01:57:59.500 --> 01:58:04.620
You feel like you're discovering something that you shouldn't be opening the box to.

01:58:06.760 --> 01:58:15.220
I don't know how to describe that or why that is the feeling that you get when you hear this stuff, but that's what it is.

01:58:15.720 --> 01:58:44.960
And I think having, like, I'm trying to put myself in the place of, like, somebody. A parent in the 50s. Yeah, a parent in the 50s who basically, you know, was probably born in the 20s. And here are these kids who seem, like, completely ungrateful for everything they have. When you grew up, you know, you were born in the 20s. You grew up in the Depression and the Second World War.

01:58:45.340 --> 01:59:15.240
And here's these kids that have everything they could have ever wanted, but yet they seem completely dissatisfied with everything. And why is my daughter jumping on that guy's motorcycle with the leather jacket and taking off? Yeah, right. Like this guy who does not have any, you know. Aspirations in life. Aspirations to do anything positive with his life, and he's just like frittering his life away. I can totally understand, like, you know, from a cultural aspect, like these people probably thought, what is the world coming to?

01:59:15.340 --> 01:59:44.740
Like, what is this? Also, they had to watch the children in reckless abandon when the Beatles landed on our shore and when Elvis was Elvis. I mean, watch them behave in ways they've certainly not seen them behave before. The jump on the motorcycle thing, a favorite line from The Wild One with Marlon Brando. It's just worth your time if you haven't seen it. It's the first real biker rebel movie. They're in this cafe and he's pretty cool. I mean, he's Brando and he's being Brando in it.

01:59:44.780 --> 02:00:13.860
But in a bigger, broader sense, he's a rebel. But he's also kind of could. He walks into this cafe, there's a pretty girl there. And she says, what do you, what do you. She's the love interest. So what are you rebelling against? And he goes, what do you got? That's a great line. Nice. All right. So I mentioned him earlier and I'll mention him again.

02:00:13.920 --> 02:00:43.900
I really think if you haven't listened to the Kinks, that's a band you should go and check out for a number of different reasons. They've spurred on so many subgenres, you know, without probably realizing they were doing it. And I just, I'm not saying they're the end all be all. I just think they're much better than they get credit for. And there's a ton of stuff out there. And they, you're right. You guys mentioned it earlier. You go from where they started to where they ended up. They cover a lot of stuff.

02:00:43.920 --> 02:00:44.460
a lot of ground.

02:00:45.620 --> 02:00:53.480
You know, and it's just, I think maybe, and they're the, are they the original brothers that hated each other?

02:00:54.300 --> 02:00:56.540
I mean, before Oasis.

02:00:57.160 --> 02:00:57.360
Yeah.

02:00:57.440 --> 02:01:02.860
Well, them and CCR, you know, the two brothers that just didn't like each other.

02:01:03.280 --> 02:01:08.140
And yet that anger, they wrote some amazing songs.

02:01:08.360 --> 02:01:10.560
I mean, I pulled out all my, I don't have much from them.

02:01:10.980 --> 02:01:11.420
I pulled it all.

02:01:11.420 --> 02:01:13.620
I was like, man, I gotta go back and listen to all this stuff again.

02:01:14.360 --> 02:01:43.480
You know, so. Speaking of CCR, I heard that he got his ownership back at some point recently. Just one of the greatest stories ever in all of music. Getting sued by his record label for sounding like himself. He's like, well, do you sound like CCR? Yeah, that's because I wrote it when I was in CCR. I saw some of that trial stuff. It was just absolutely hilarious. Oh, no, it's wonderful. Bonkers. Okay, I'm going to wrap.

02:01:43.520 --> 02:02:13.320
these suggestions up. I guess I'll do two. I was going to just do one, but I do think, and I was glad George mentioned them, because if you don't know the sheer power of that MC5 album, I mean, really, and it's heavy from the get-go. It's funny, too, because their second record is not like that, but this one's live, and there's a lot of what kind of happened in metal interlaced throughout that record, so I would suggest MC5 kick out the gyms. But even above that, if I was only going to suggest one thing,

02:02:13.500 --> 02:02:43.480
I don't know why I'm zeroing in on this one it's not 50s 1964 Dave Clark 5 glad all over it's got glad all over is on there bits and pieces two great examples I think of really hard rock starting to take place and shape but somewhat technologically limited but still pushing because there's the echo there they fuzzed out some of their guitars it's a great record and it influenced a lot of people you probably like so yeah I I've been meaning to dig deep

02:02:43.520 --> 02:02:44.740
into them for a long time.

02:02:46.360 --> 02:02:47.580
I'd start it gliding all over.

02:02:47.890 --> 02:02:48.600
Oh, yeah, I did.

02:02:48.830 --> 02:02:49.380
I did, actually.

02:02:49.960 --> 02:02:51.420
And, yeah, it's good stuff.

02:02:52.040 --> 02:02:52.780
It is good stuff.

02:02:52.850 --> 02:02:56.580
And it's the American Beatles, but they were a little harder, a little edgier, and not as big.

02:02:57.020 --> 02:02:57.120
Yeah.

02:02:58.460 --> 02:02:59.180
But, yeah.

02:03:00.700 --> 02:03:00.820
Cool.

02:03:02.460 --> 02:03:03.740
This has been fun to talk about this, guys.

02:03:03.860 --> 02:03:05.440
This is a really interesting conversation to me.

02:03:05.840 --> 02:03:06.080
Yeah.

02:03:06.560 --> 02:03:08.880
You know, next time, why don't you come back again?

02:03:10.740 --> 02:03:12.560
That's how we did it on the other podcast.

02:03:13.320 --> 02:03:14.800
As soon as those checks clear

02:03:16.600 --> 02:03:18.000
We might be waiting a while

02:03:18.240 --> 02:03:19.180
I gotta tell you Jay

02:03:19.820 --> 02:03:22.080
If we are lucky to get to episode 100

02:03:22.340 --> 02:03:24.300
I would say don't count on it by then

02:03:25.700 --> 02:03:28.620
Hey just as soon as people start paying for this thing

02:03:29.140 --> 02:03:30.260
Yeah exactly

02:03:30.520 --> 02:03:32.120
I'm really grateful for that George

02:03:32.580 --> 02:03:34.380
And likewise you guys asked me to come on

02:03:34.460 --> 02:03:35.640
This is great fun and it's

02:03:36.200 --> 02:03:37.880
I like having the fact that we can have a

02:03:38.360 --> 02:03:40.520
Pretty wide open group of things to talk about

02:03:40.540 --> 02:04:01.040
Well, I like the way your mind works. I mean, you know, you've written some pretty interesting articles for the Metalheads website. And I feel like it would be really cool to have, you know, you and the professor get together and just do some really cool stuff.

02:04:02.300 --> 02:04:06.640
We will. Hey, at the end of the day, I love talking to my friends about music.

02:04:06.800 --> 02:04:07.260
Yeah.

02:04:07.980 --> 02:04:16.920
Well, like I've always said, I would do this even if the tape wasn't rolling. You know what I mean? This would happen regardless.

02:04:17.140 --> 02:04:17.300
Exactly.

02:04:18.739 --> 02:04:28.260
The fact that our friends and followers can listen to this and enjoy it, I just think that's wonderful.

02:04:28.900 --> 02:04:54.320
And again, I say this every episode, but I really mean it because the fact that anybody listens to this, I mean, I would do this any way. Like I would talk about like John and I had like probably a two hour discussion on dream theater, like early, early dream theater bootlegs. Like we talked about that for two hours.

02:04:54.600 --> 02:05:23.720
But based on that, isn't this something that you would listen to as well if you weren't on here? I would. Yeah, because I'll be honest, I don't even listen to that much metal stuff for podcasts and everything at all. I'd rather listen to more wide range. It's just where I am. I just wanted to add, I was just going to say that, T.R. T.R. Lee sends me a text message. This will be real quick. It says, hey, do you have this?

02:05:24.600 --> 02:05:54.220
this fan club thing from Dream Theater. And I was like, I don't have that one. And I was like, wait a minute, I got something better. So I did not do it. I got something better. I got a bootleg from this. It's the whole show. And then we were texting for like five minutes and I finally called him. I said, I'm already bored texting you. And it's like, and it just. There is no rabbit hole like this rabbit hole. We just kept going down. I said, hold on a second. And I disappear on the phone. I just pulled like 10 boots off my I have.

02:05:54.280 --> 02:06:23.600
I used to click bootlegs. He drops them in the Dropbox and I'm like, oh my god. And so for like, yeah, like literally a couple hours, we're commenting on like, you know, what they used to play, how they used to play it, who was in the band, why they were so great, why this was awesome. You should have been recording that. We came up with an idea for an episode out of that. Yeah, that's true. We'll mention it after.

02:06:24.300 --> 02:06:53.400
that later. But yeah, but you know, and that's the thing. This is what we do, right? Like this is what we are and this is what it is. So it's like, you know, why not let the tape roll and capture some of what we, what we, you know, if somebody can enjoy that, great. If, if not, we just had a great time talking for however long we did just now about a topic that we all like and that, you know, and actually I learned a lot, you know,

02:06:53.980 --> 02:07:23.960
Yeah, going back and doing some research, because again, this is not an area that I'm very familiar with. I know some stuff, and I'm familiar with some songs, and I've heard a lot of names, and I know... But I had never heard some of these songs. I had never listened to... Well, I was surprised to find out that I actually did know some of the Shadow songs, because they did that song Apache. And they show up in the weirdest places. I mean, some of these things, you'll find them in the

02:07:24.000 --> 02:07:30.060
We're the weirdest soundtracks and things. And they'll be familiar, too. Sometimes it's just, I know that.

02:07:30.400 --> 02:07:51.700
You know, TR, you touched on something that I've been thinking about recently leading up to this episode was we talk about a lot of music that we know very well and that, you know, we're very fond of. And I was like, yeah, but we should be pushing our boundaries. We should be listening to stuff we don't know well.

02:07:51.860 --> 02:07:51.960
Yeah.

02:07:52.640 --> 02:08:01.420
to both grow and learn new things that maybe we didn't know we liked, and then to pass that on to other people that might want to do the same thing.

02:08:02.180 --> 02:08:18.000
Well, to that end, I have one of the things I've suggested to George is that we do an occasional episode along the lines of, and I have to admit, I've stolen this from a documentary, a fairly recent documentary called We Need to Talk About Bill Cosby.

02:08:18.480 --> 02:08:47.660
And this, you can imagine why they need to talk about it. But it's a black artist saying, okay, this was a guy I grew up with and this terrible thing happened. But I think we should do, we need to talk about episodes. And we'll just put, if you guys are up for it, which used to be like Bruce Springsteen or Bob Dylan or anybody, any longstanding artist who just sort of like ubiquitous in the culture and really explore them from an episode, you know? Absolutely. John doesn't like Springsteen, but that's a perfectly good reason to talk about him. I'm part of that club too.

02:08:48.900 --> 02:09:18.400
That was a random selection. I mean, like, you know what? Actually, it's probably not a bad idea because honestly, I barely know. Like, I know his hits, but I couldn't tell you one thing about any, like, obscure songs or whatever. No, I feel bad for saying that because I don't really want to do Bruce Springsteen. Okay. I would like to. I'm a fan of the boss. I don't want to spend three hours just going, talking like that the whole time. Every time he talks, I can't understand what he's saying. But there's some obvious stuff like Dylan.

02:09:18.500 --> 02:09:48.320
or Neil Young. I mean, there's got to be stuff that we all at least have some familiarity with. Let's really, really look at this guy or girl, whoever they are, or group. And then, you know, and talk about them and talk about their eras and kind of talk about their social relevance or whatever the hell it is. Oh, I could do that. We could do scenes also, you know, music scenes. We could go down so many rabbit holes. Yeah. So, but let's do, yeah. Scenes, do you mean like from films? Oh, no. He means like musical scenes. Musical scenes. Or like, you know,

02:09:48.500 --> 02:10:18.440
New Wave. San Francisco era, or the Hollywood Strip, or the New York scene. Now you've got me thinking about the connection to movies, too, and the interesting use of music and films. But in any case, yeah, let's do some of that. I mean, I think that'd be a lot of fun. Yeah. So our listeners are getting a hint of what's to come. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. A Shape of Things to Come. Oh, there you go. That's the perfect, that was well done.

02:10:18.500 --> 02:10:48.360
Name at least two people who did it. That Jeff Beck. Yeah. And who sang it? Who sang it for Jeff Beck? Rod Stewart. There you go. And then there was the original. It was written and originally performed by the Artbirds. That's what I was referring to. No, I don't recall who sang on that. But yeah, Rod Stewart sings on the Jeff Beck version. Cool. I'll tell you guys a very brief funny story. I promise it's brief.

02:10:48.500 --> 02:11:18.460
but I just recently reunited with a friend of mine who I haven't seen since high school graduation but he was at that time my closest tightest friend in the world and it's been really cool to reconnect because he's sending me all these flyers to shows that he saved like everything I've got one from King's Axe Masters of Reality he's sending me these things pictures of them Masters of Reality wow but when you but it was a King's Axe show nobody showed up it was great because they played for like us and nobody else but I mentioned this only because if you have a friend

02:11:18.500 --> 02:11:48.460
and you're connected with that friend and they love music through it this is the kind of guy where i'm like let's get together and listen to records you know what i mean like can you do it you spend the night you go but wait till you hear this dude and he goes but i don't really kind of listen to this stuff all that much that we listened to back then and everything and i said i was like yeah i'm pretty far off that now too and everything and he was i was like well what do you like and he goes and he said well right now i'm listening to and he named a record and it was a buck owens record and i said dude hold on and i went over to my record player and took

02:11:48.500 --> 02:12:18.460
a picture because that record was on my record player at that time wow it's just the fact that if you're connected with somebody and you have a dear friend and you wander far artistically and you find them again they're probably going to like all the same stuff you like yeah it was great dude i was just like you did not just say that record dude like literally that record is on my record player right now wow that's well he must have fallen over when he heard that he did yeah but and then there's been a million coincidences

02:12:18.500 --> 02:12:27.720
since then just movies and different music we listen to and stuff so jay it's just more proof for living in the matrix that's exactly right

02:12:30.460 --> 02:12:39.160
all right i'm really looking forward to the future indeed all right well i think we have reached the end of today

02:12:39.700 --> 02:12:48.460
thank you gentlemen thank you jay for joining the crew yeah this is a treat yeah welcome aboard friend

02:12:48.500 --> 02:13:17.380
Yes. Indeed. Thank you. No, thanks for having me, guys, and trusting me to come on and do this with you. That's humbling and fun. Absolutely. And we'll have something interesting for you next time as well. We hope. We hope. If not, we'll just talk about Michael Shanker all night. Yeah. And George and John start a new podcast. The I Hate TR and J podcast. And Shanker soaks, too.

02:13:19.960 --> 02:13:23.740
All right. See ya. Load it up. All right. Rock.